Muscle group workout frequency

[Sark7366]

Hello,

I have a simple question. What is the optimum number of times to workout a muscle group in one week? For example, should you do the bench press once a week or three times a week? After awhile I know you'll end up over training, but what's the "sweet spot" so to speak?

[tooncesthecat]

Depends on many factors...
your age
your goals
your experience working out
your diet
your workout
which muscle group you are training
if you are natural or on AAS

hmmmmm...

In other words, the more precise your info, the better answer you'll get

[Steel_UK]

Well powerlifters like to bench twice a week and do assistance work as well (typically shoulder related on a bench day).

[skijumpbump]

I say do both, try them each for 6 or so weeks and see which works for you.

[orientalkid]

If u have a hectic work life, have problems having clean, home prepared meals all the time and usually have less than 8hrs of sleep, then its best that u train each major muscle group chest, back and legs 1 time a week to prevent overtraining.

[Sark7366]

Originally Posted by tooncesthecat

Depends on many factors...
your age
your goals
your experience working out
your diet
your workout
which muscle group you are training
if you are natural or on AAS

hmmmmm...

In other words, the more precise your info, the better answer you'll get

Age: 20
Goals: Strength
Diet: Clean, no junk food, lots of meat, not enough vegetables though
Natural, no steroids

I'm focusing on chest, biceps, and legs (overall) and basically any other muscle group that will fit into my workout plan well.

Experience: Started doing cardio and lifting weights consistently in July, have lost a bunch of fat (around 30 pounds) and gained some muscle as well. I weigh 205 now (6'4 height). I've been wildly successful with my fat loss goal, but weight lifting wise I haven't really made equivalent, great progress. Only moderate gains.

Perhaps I am looking for too much too soon, but either way, I have not really stuck to one weight lifting plan the whole time because I've never been 100% sure it's the right one.

Hence my question about frequency. Also, I only have dumbbells and a bench for equipment.

[tooncesthecat]

For strength you are gonna have to lift HEAVY and eat tons of good food. You really could start a program with just bench, squats, and deadlifts. Maybe do something like one of these each day for 3 days, rest on the 4th day and go again. Try to stick in the 3-5 rep range and take several min between sets. This will allow you to do the heaviest weights each set. Maybe do 5 or 6 sets on each day if you are new to this. Work up so you are doing 10 -12 sets on each day. You'll get stronger if you stick to these basic movements. You will also hit every other part of your body to some degree with these 3 movements.

One question is why do you want to get stronger? Eventually you may need to generalize your workouts more...for example, a football player might need good lower body and arm strength to block or a pitcher might need good leg and arm strength to throw a 95 mph fastball. It just depends.

[Sark7366]

Originally Posted by tooncesthecat

You really could start a program with just bench, squats, and deadlifts. Maybe do something like one of these each day for 3 days, rest on the 4th day and go again. Try to stick in the 3-5 rep range and take several min between sets. Maybe do 5 or 6 sets on each day if you are new to this. Work up so you are doing 10 -12 sets on each day.

I'm not gaining strength for any sport or activity in particular.

So to expand on what you said about a workout plan, I could do something like this? :

Monday, Bench Press, 6 sets, 5 reps
Tuesday, Squats, 6 sets, 5 reps
Wednesday, Deadlift, 6 sets, 5 reps
Thursday, Rest
... and then start the cycle over again on Friday?

Would that give me enough rest?

[tooncesthecat]

Yeah, give it a try and see how you feel. Make sure you warmup before you start counting your "working sets"

[pliny_2001]

I hate to be stuck on repeat with my advice, but Sark may want to look into Starting Strength, where they've already set out the workout for him. Just focusing on the big 3 may work for powerlifters, but it won't work for building a balanced strength/physique.

And the short answer is that muscle groups vary -- I've found that I can work chest 2x/week, quads and hams once every 5, calves can go practically every day. Everyone varies, muscle groups vary. It's most important just to consistently get the work done.

Your quote of "never really stuck with one weightlifting plan" is very telling. Just get a good routine, stick with it (religiously) for a few months, and note the differences. Adjust accordingly.

[Sark7366]

Thanks for all of the advice.

It is true that I have not stuck with a weight lifting program for an extended period of time, so with that in mind I'll try out what tooncesthecat suggested and see where that takes me.

What should I do for a warm up though? Jog a little or something?

[Steel_UK]

Warm ups can be done with the weights and routine you're going to do but higher reps, like 8 or so with an easy weight. Do that for one or two sets and then off you go.

[wil]

Try one of the various programs out there that has your workouts set up for you.

Starting Strength is a good one as Pliny suggested. Also Stronglifts 5x5 and the Starr-Pendlay 5x5 routines are pretty good and well-rounded for overall strength gains.

But no matter what program you use make sure you are training heavy with Squats, Deadlifts, Presses, and Rows.


And your warmup for lifting is not jogging or something similar. Sure - do that to get your entire body ready to move, but the warmups toonces was talking about is the sets using light weights to get your muscles and joints warmed up for the heavy stuff to follow. So for squat day, you'll be doing some sets of light squats as well as any overall cardio warmup you might do (I usually ride a stationary bike for 5-10 minutes just hard enough to work up a little sweat).

[n10city]

Dynamic training works well too, rest is completely dependent on some individual factors like workout intensity, particular muscle and its types of fibers, supplementation, eating. Dr. Squat has a great example on his site called the ABC workout, which i would post but bc it says i'm a newb i can't! grr

[wil]

Here are links to the first 2 parts of Dr. Squat's ABC Training...

ABC Training Made REAL Simple! Part I: Movements | Dr. Squat - Dr. Fred Hatfield
ABC Training Made REAL Simple! Part II: Movements | Dr. Squat - Dr. Fred Hatfield


I would look for more but I have to head off for a meeting. YAY!!! ...

[Sark7366]

Hey all,

I've been plugging along with the plan I wrote down in an earlier post in this thread. So far, so good.

However, I have a question. Should I rest an extra day if I'm pretty sore? Or should I go ahead with lifting if I'm only a "little" sore versus being really sore?

[Steel_UK]

I find that still lifting helps with the soreness normally, particularly if it's a movement that gives a really good stretch.

[sucher67]

Originally Posted by Steel_UK

I find that still lifting helps with the soreness normally, particularly if it's a movement that gives a really good stretch.

Do you get better gains also?

[wil]

Here is the article I found regarding the ABC training plan developed by Fred Hatfield...

ABC Training Made REAL Simple! Part I: Movements
by Frederick C. Hatfield II, MS, MFS, CSCS

The ABC system of bodybuilding training is a program based on the seven rules of training. These rules are not new, nor can anyone claim to have discovered them. Over the years, these rules have gained acceptance as "laws;" they are set in stone.
While Dr. Hatfield and the International Sports Sciences Association have noted them, every other credible expert in the training sciences acknowledges them, even if they have different names for them. When taking the ABC approach, watching your diet (that is, abiding by the 5 rules of performance nutrition) is critical.

THE ABC SYSTEM IS NOT SET IN STONE - THE PRINCIPLES BEHIND IT ARE!

Dr. Hatfield presented the ABC approach to training nearly two decades ago. His early work on this system is still valid today. Both Doc and I have received countless questions about the ABC program over the last ten years, and these questions lead me to believe there are still folks who simply don't understand it. This article, therefore, is meant to break it down finitely -- rep by rep, set by set and workout by workout. Before reading this article, however, you should read Dr. Hatfield's article, "The Simplicity of Periodicity", which is available in the articles section of Doc's site, Home | Dr. Squat - Dr. Fred Hatfield. That article will give you the scientific rationale why this program works.
Below, I have simplified what may have seemed to be a complicated and difficult program. Later, I'll simplify several different approaches to ABC training.

For example, I will present programs which are meant to be applied 3 days per week, 5 days per week and ABC approaches which focus on movements rather than body parts.

The program outlined below is definitely do-able, even for folks who have a busy schedule. Yes, you will need dedication and you may have to train in the evening or early in the morning to fit it in. It is 7 days a week and I don't feel sorry for you! As I said, I will give you alternatives that follow the universally accepted rules of training. But 99 percent of the population can, if they are dedicated, able to follow this program. None of the workouts in this program should be longer than 90 minutes. Most of them are 20 - 35 minutes long (unless you are exercising your jaw muscles too much between sets!).

Tables 1 & 2 give you a 28 day schedule. Following that are the workouts to be done on each day. In the next installment, I will list some general comments and tips.
Table 1
Exercise Day
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
Legs A B C
Chest A B C B
Shoulders B A B C B
Triceps C B A B C
Back C B A B
Biceps A B C B
Forearms A A A A A A A
Calves A A A A A A A
Abs A A A A A A A
Table 2
Exercise Day
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28
Legs B A B
Chest A B C
Shoulders A B C B
Triceps A B C B
Back A B C
Biceps A B C B C
Forearms A A A A A A A
Calves A A A A A A A
Abs A A A A A A A

Legs
For this body part our staple exercise will be the squat. With that in mind, you could break "legs" down to hamstrings, quadriceps, glutes and lower back, in the same fashion we did with the upper body (chest, shoulders and triceps - with the main exercise the bench press). If you decide to do so, give the same amount of rest time to each muscle as listed in the chart for "legs". With the lower back, stick with "A" workouts and give yourself two full days rest.
A Workouts B Workouts C Workouts
Squat 65%/6 reps x 3 sets Squat 75%/6 x 3
Hack Squat 65%/12 x 2 Giant sets Squat 80%/5 x 2
Hack Squats 65%12 x 2
Free Squats Bwt x 40 x 2

Chest
I understand it's as tough to isolate the pecs from the shoulders and triceps as it is to isolate the various leg muscles. I will do my best, but realize it will still cut into recovery time of the other muscles. In the general notes section, I will point out that you can move workouts around so that they work in harmony.

It may be advantageous to use a wider grip (elbows out) in the bench press so that the pectorals get the brunt and not the shoulders or triceps. You could even use exercises like the pec deck or dumbbell flyes instead.
A Workouts B Workouts C Workouts
Bench Press 65%/6 x 3 Bench Press 75%/6 x 3
Chest Flyes 65%/12 x 2 Giant sets
Bench Press 80%/5 x 2
Chest Flyes 65%/12 x 2
DB Bench 35%/40 x 2

Shoulders
Shoulders - like triceps - must coincide with the chest exercises if we are using the Bench press as our main chest exercise. Moving exercises a day ahead or a day later is not that big of a deal.
If you are benching with a wide grip, you should still be able to fit these exercises in on their prescribed days. If you don't feel comfortable with that, by all means move them to another day.
A Workouts B Workouts C Workouts
Front Raises 6 x 3 Front Raises 6 x 3
Lateral Raises 12 x 2 Giant sets
Front Raises 6 x 2
Lateral Raises 12 x 2
Overhead Press 40 x 2

Triceps
The commentary provided in the chest and shoulder section also applies to tricep work. Here are the workouts:
A Workouts B Workouts C Workouts
Lying Tricep Extension 6 x 3 Lying Tricep Extension6 x 3
Tricep Pushdown 12 x 2 Giant sets
Tricep Pushdown 5 x 2
Lying Tricep Extension 12 x 2
Tricep Pushdown 40 x 2

Back
There are two approaches you can take in training the back. You can use bent rows and work the posterior deltoids and rhomboids, or you can work the lats. Of course, you could do them both! I will detail a plan for them both. Like the Bench Press, your biceps will also be trained with some of the movements I'm giving. Keep that in mind and make adjustments as needed.
A Workouts B Workouts C Workouts
Bent Row 6 x 3
Pulldowns 6 x 3 Bent Row 6 x 3
Shrug Rows 12 x 2
Pulldowns 6 x 3
Lat Shrugs 12 x 2 Giant sets
Bent Row 5 x 2
Shrug Rows 12 x 2
Reverse Flyes 40 x 2
Pulldowns 6 x 3
Lat Shrugs 12 x 2
Pullovers 40 x 2

Biceps
I will give you three guesses which exercise I'm suggesting and the second two guesses won't count! Barbell, dumbbell, EZ bar…. I don't care what you use. However, you will want to do the 40 x 2 sets with both arms working at the same time to ensure constant tension, which is a must for what you want to achieve by doing them.
A Workouts B Workouts C Workouts
Curls 6 x 3 Curls 6 x 3
12 x 2 Giant sets
Curls 6 x 2
12 x 2
40 x 2

Forearms, Calves, Abs
These muscles are predominately slow twitch and therefore can be trained often, therefore, I don't recommend the typical ABC approach to training them. For forearms, I like the Captains of Crush Grippers, which are available through Ironmind Enterprises. However, there are a variety of exercises you can do for your forearms. For calves, I recommend the strength shoe (a program for such is beyond the scope of this article), but good ole fashioned calf raises are great as well. Abs? Well, of course there is more out on abs then I like to acknowledge. However, I do have three exercises, which I think make up a complete program: Pre-stretched Crunches, Side Bends and Russian Twists.

General Comments:
• You may find it advantageous to move a workout up a day or back a day. A general rule of thumb is to move workouts, which work larger muscles like the pectorals, back and workouts using smaller muscles like the shoulders or triceps up a day.
• This system is very intense! Proper sleep, nutrition and supplementation are a must.
• Listen to your body. You may find that you don't need as much recovery as I suggested, or you may need an extra day. Listening to your body is a good thing - just don't let it lie to you! Laziness is not a reason!
• A Giant set ("C" workouts) is a set of 5 reps, a set of 15 reps and a set of 40 reps done without rest between sets. Furthermore, there is no rest between giant sets. This means you will be doing 130 reps in a row with no rest. Of course, you can take time to change weights and move to a different exercise, but that is a matter of 5-10 seconds. Yes, it can be done! You may need to lower the weight used a bit, but not much.
• The 40 reps in a giant set are slow (2/2 cadence, but that is not a strict rule) and continuous. Don't stop between reps! A slight pause between the other sets is ok…

OK, that was probably hard to read since the article includes some tables, so being the number-crunching-spreadsheet-geek that I am, I put the exercises and workout days into a spreadsheet and tried to make it a little more reader-friendly. Here is how a 28-day plan would look...


I hope this is not too hard to read

DAY … Total sets … Exercises

1 … 22 sets … Squat 65% 3 sets x 6 reps … Giant sets ((Bent Row 2x5 … Shrug Rows 2x12 … Reverse Flyes 2x40 )) … Pulldowns 3x6 … Lat Shrugs 2x12 … Pullovers 2x40 … Forearms 3 sets … Calves 3 sets

2 … 17 sets … Bench Press 65% 3x6 … Front Raises 3x6 … Lateral Raises 2x12 … Giant sets (( Tricep Pushdown 2x5 … Lying Tricep Extension 2x12 … Tricep Pushdown 2x40 )) … Abs 3 sets

3 … 9 sets … Curls 3x6 … Forearms 3 sets … Calves 3 sets

4 … 3 sets … Abs 3 sets

5 … 24 sets … Squat 75% 3x6 … Hack Squat 65% 2x12 … Bench Press 75% 3x6 … Incline Flyes 65% 2x12 … Front Raises 3x6 … Curls 3x6 … Curls 2x12 … Forearms 3 sets … Calves 3 sets

6 … 18 sets … Lying Tricep Extension 3x6 … Tricep Pushdown 2x12 … Bent Row 3x6 … Shrug Rows 2x12 … Pulldowns 3x6 … Lat Shrugs 2x12 … Abs 3 sets

7 … 11 sets … Front Raises 3x6 … Lateral Raises 2x12 … Forearms 3 sets … Calves 3 sets

8 … 9 sets … Giant sets ((Curls 2x6 … Curls 2x12 … Curls 2x40 )) … Abs 3 sets

9 … 15 sets … Giant sets ((Bench Press 80% 2x5 … Incline Flyes 65% 2x12 … DB Bench 35% 2x40 )) … Lying Tricep Extension 3x6 … Forearms 3 sets … Calves 3 sets

10 … 21 sets … Giant sets ((Squat 80% 2x5 … Hack Squats 65% 2x12 … Free Squats Bwt x 2x40 )) … Giant sets ((Front Raises 2x6 … Lateral Raises 2x12 … Overhead Press 2x40 )) … Bent Row 3x6 … Pulldowns 3x6 … Abs 3 sets

11 … 11 sets … Lying Tricep Extension 3x6 … Tricep Pushdown 2x12 … Forearms 3 sets … Calves 3 sets

12 … 8 sets … Curls 3x6 … Curls 2x12 … Abs 3 sets

13 … 6 sets … Forearms 3 sets … Calves 3 sets

14 … 29 sets … Bench Press 75% 3x6 … Incline Flyes 65% 2x12 … Front Raises 3x6 … Lateral Raises 2x12 … Giant sets ((Tricep Pushdown 2x5 … Lying Tricep Extension 2x12 … Tricep Pushdown 2x40 )) … Bent Row 3x6 … Shrug Rows 2x12 … Pulldowns 3x6 … Lat Shrugs 2x12 … Abs 3 sets

15 … 6 sets … Curls 3x6 … Calves 3 sets

16 … 11 sets … Squat 75% 3x6 … Hack Squat 65% 2x12 … Forearms 3 sets … Abs 3 sets

17 … 11 sets … Front Raises 3x6 … Curls 3x6 … Curls 2x12 … Calves 3 sets

18 … 18 sets … Bench Press 65% 3x6 … Lying Tricep Extension 3x6 … Bent Row 3x6 … Pulldowns 3x6 … Forearms 3 sets … Abs 3 sets

19 … 8 sets … Front Raises 3x6 … Lateral Raises 2x12 … Calves 3 sets

20 … 17 sets … Lying Tricep Extension 3x6 … Tricep Pushdown 2x12 … Giant sets ((Curls 2x6 … Curls 2x12 … Curls 2x40 )) … Forearms 3 sets … Abs 3 sets

21 … 21 sets … Squat 65% 3x6 … Bench Press 75% 3x6 … Incline Flyes 65% 2x12 … Bent Row 3x6 … Shrug Rows 2x12 … Pulldowns 3x6 … Lat Shrugs 2x12 … Calves 3 sets

22 … 12 sets … Giant sets ((Front Raises 2x6 … Lateral Raises 2x12 … Overhead Press 2x40 )) … Forearms 3 sets … Abs 3 sets

23 … 9 sets … Giant sets ((Tricep Pushdown 2x5 … Lying Tricep Extension 2x12 … Tricep Pushdown 2x40 )) … Calves 3 sets

24 … 11 sets … Curls 3x6 … Curls 2x12 … Forearms 3 sets … Abs 3 sets

25 … 27 sets … Squat 75% 3x6 … Hack Squat 65% 2x12 … Giant sets ((Bench Press 80% 2x5 … Incline Flyes 65% 2x12 … DB Bench 35% 2x40 )) … Giant sets ((Bent Row 2x5 … Shrug Rows 2x12 … Reverse Flyes 2x40 )) … Pulldowns 3x6 … Lat Shrugs 2x12 … Pullovers 2x40 … Calves 3 sets

26 … 11 sets … Front Raises 3x6 … Lateral Raises 2x12 … Forearms 3 sets … Abs 3 sets

27 … 14 sets … Lying Tricep Extension 3x6 … Tricep Pushdown 2x12 … Giant sets ((Curls 2x6 … Curls 2x12 … Curls 2x40 )) … Calves 3 sets

28 … 6 sets … Forearms 3 sets … Abs 3 sets

Now, obviously, Dr. Squat knows WAAAAAY more than I do about the science behind bodybuilding, but I was struck by these totals for the 28-day cycle...

Legs ... 6 workout days for 27 total sets
Chest ... 7 workout days for 33 total sets
Shoulders ... 9 workout days for 43 total sets
Triceps ... 9 workout days for 44 total sets
Back ... 7 workout days for 67 total sets
Biceps ... 9 workout days for 44 total sets
Forearms ... 14 workout days for 42 total sets
Calves... 14 workout days for 42 total sets
Abs... 14 workout days for 42 total sets

Doesn't it seem like legs and chest are getting short-changed?