How natural is 'natural'?

**tidalwave** · May 5th, 2009, 08:44 AM

Our own driving cat's contest prep has made me consider trying to shoot for a show at some point. While I'm no where near stage at this point, I've looked into various shows and sanctioning bodies and have been surprised by the degree of variation between the natural federations.

The largest surprise came when I viewed the banned substances list for the INBF, same org that Toonces is competing under. All of the expected pharmaceuticals were on the list. However, there were a myriad of OTC products, including fat burners!

Excerpt:

Quote:

•Fat-Burning Prohormone Derivatives such as 3,17-dihydroxy-delta-5-etiocholane-7-one (A7-D), 3,17-dihydroxy-delta-5-etiocholane-7-
one diethylcarbonate (A7-E), 7-OH DHEA, etc. are banned effective January 1, 2007. (Includes Hot Rox, Fahrenheit, etc.)
....
INBF COMPETITORS ONLY: NOTE: Any athtletes who are NEW to the INBF, MUST NOT HAVE USED ANY PROHORMONES
for AT LEAST TWO (2) YEARS before joining the INBF for the FIRST TIME!
NOTE: BE SURE TO CHECK ALL INGREDIENTS LISTS OF SUPPLEMENTS BEFORE USING THEM! (E-mail inbf@epix.net.)

This was kind of a bummer, since I've used Hot Rox (sporadically) for a pre-workout caffeine boost when mixing a drink was inconvenient. So I wouldn't be able to do anything with the INBF for another 2 years?? Now, I gather that the INBF one of the strictest of the natrual tested orgs, but I thought I'd share this, as it was certainly a surprise to me. Sorry for the rant - I probably should have researched A7-E (active ingredient in Hot Rox) before purchasing it, especially after the whole Hydroxycut snafu. It's a bit frustrating to not be considered 'natural' using a few OTC supps, when I certainly don't look like I'm enhanced.

**pliny_2001** · May 5th, 2009, 10:10 AM

I can't speak to particular chemicals (A7-D, A7-E, etc.), but I really just consider it good practice to not take things that I can't understand very easily -- I also like a good caffeine hit, but I've got 200mg caffeine pills that do a good job of that, at a very low cost.

I've never taken fat-burners, so I can't comment on that, but it's scary how often OTC supplements get pulled for their ingredients, and that entire pro-hormone industry is one of the many things that I find distasteful in the iron game.

**mooshue** · May 5th, 2009, 11:49 AM

not to hijack the thread too badly, but the supplement industry is not currently regulated by anyone. You could actually buy a bunch of chemicals, dump them into capsules, print labels on your computer, and ask local stores to stock it without much risk as long as you put warnings to protect yourself in case the person taking it gets hurt.
From my friends in the on stage bis, it's as close to natural at the time you are competing. They want 2 years clean, i don't think you would have any traces left of hot rox in your system after a few months. I know hot rox are popular because they contain carbolin 19, and androgen that keeps the strength up while the rest of the thermols help cut fat, sort of how anavar works. Sort of cheating i guess, but check the half life of those listed ingrediants if you are really worried about being rejected.

**tooncesthecat** · May 5th, 2009, 05:49 PM

Sucks, don't it? Long list of banned stuff to the INBF. From what I understand, they are one of the more rigid federations as far as "banned" substances. Kind of over the top IMO, but they were the ones putting on this local show. So to answer your original question, "natural" is as natural as one must be according to the rules of the particular contest.

**Insex** · May 5th, 2009, 07:51 PM

Using over the counter supplements is kind of like a box of chocolates: You never know what you're going to get.

I've never used fat burners or any of those other "hardcore" supplements while getting ready for my shows primarily because of the fear that I don't know what's in them. "Better safe than never" is sort of my philosophy. All of the shows I've done had sent out lists of banned substances to competitors prior to contest date. Funny thing is that not all of the substances listed are steroids; many of them are ingredients found in over the counter weight loss supplements as well. Big brother doesn't regulate everything that is over the counter either, so you have to regulate the products yourself.

In the past, I've witnessed seeing competitors getting banned from shows because of banned substances detected in their urine. Almost all of these competitors claim that they just used typical vitamin and mineral supplements. Funny thing is that some companies that manufacture vitamins may manufacture other products which contain the banned substances. So the same machinery being used for manufacturing those other products could be used for manufacturing the "safe" vitamin pills too, so the banned ingredients "accidentally" get into the vitamin pills. Kind of like how some companies that manufacture foods list on their labels, "product may contain wheat and soy," or, "product was manufactured in a facility that also manufactures wheat and soy." Other companies might do the immoral thing and just purposely dump banned ingredients in their products, but not list them.

I would define natural as just the basics. Do your research when trying something new; but to be safe, stick to the basics.

**wildstang** · May 5th, 2009, 09:11 PM

awwww! now you guys are making me feel bad for running a few cycles off aas in the past to look as huge as i am now....lol but yes being natural for some athletes boils down to what most said here but id bet a paycheck a good portion of competitors took enhancements like me then went dry for a few years to get out of system then jumped on stage calling themselves a natural.

**pliny_2001** · May 5th, 2009, 09:34 PM

I completely agree with wildstang's last point -- I've been in a number of discussions around a few gyms, and I'll always say I'm natural (b/c I am a lifetime natural) and the other guy says he's natural, too - he hasn't used for a few years. I generally want to hit these guys over the head while repeating "THEN. YOU'RE. NOT. NATURAL!!!" And no, "keeping your gains" without A/AS is not the same as gaining it without A/AS.

That said, though, I really don't care if people use - I just want them to be honest about it. (We're not judging you, 'stang

)

**helpmespock** · May 6th, 2009, 04:27 AM

the winners of many "natural" contests are clearly using aas, and not just in the past...but very recently... USNBA is one of them. They use a lie detector which is really nothing to pass. Personally I don't get why guys using roids enter natural contests at all?????

to me its like the varsity team scrimmaging the freshman team in high school football, then bragging on how they kicked ass. I haven't used but one cycle in the last five tears, but regardless of the rules, I will never consider myself natural, since I juiced for about five years straight....many moons ago....

**tidalwave** · May 6th, 2009, 09:52 AM

Thanks for the replies. I think the consensus is to know exactly what you're putting in your body, whether you want to be considered natural or not, which should be a priority even without aspirations of competition.

My first takeaway lesson is that even a supplement I bought at Wal Mart can make you 'chemically enhanced' in the eyes of some.

So, in the interest of due diligence, the method for discerning whether something is 'natural' or related to aas / andro substances appears to be difficult without a bio-chem degree, let's go through the motions..

Using the query "A7-E + prohormone" in Google yields two results on the first page of results: one is a T-Nation forum thread, the other is the WNBF/INBF banned list.

The thread mentioned above contains a post:

Quote:

By the common definition in the nutritional supplement industry of a "prohormone" being a substance yielding testosterone or a substance acting like testosterone or other androgen in the body, no, A7-E is not a prohormone, as it has no androgen properties at all, completely does not work at the androgen receptor or via any androgenic means.

Doing further research leads one to believe that A7-E is (obviously) not a steroid, nor a prohormone. More material says that it is a modified version of 7-keto DHEA (now legal in the INBF)

Quote:

7-KETO (3-acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone) is a naturally occurring metabolite (breakdown product) of the hormone dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA).1 DHEA is the most abundant of the adrenal steroid hormones and serves as a precursor for sex hormones, such as estrogen and testosterone.

With my limited biology and chemistry background, 7-keto sound like it's something of a prohormone, as it appears to be a kind of precursor, yet it is "naturally occuring."

Even the venerable E/C/A stack that many of us on EF have used is banned by the INBF, due to the ephedra/ephedrine content.

Without relying upon a bodybuilding federation or the IOC to tell you what is natural and what is 'enhanced', it seems to be difficult to obtain clear and reliable information independently. I guess the real solution is something resembling Insex's approach. Without going on a diatribe against the supplement industry, and considering that I'm for personal responsibility over regulation, it would be nice to have a more centralized resource for information on ingredients less hiding behind "proprietary blends." Until then, I guess, caveat emptor.

**pliny_2001** · May 6th, 2009, 10:12 AM

I think it's the NCAA (or maybe the NFL?) that has a list of approved supplements that they've determined to be "safe." I think it's a good idea, but I seem to remember the discussion about its practice being slanted only towards a few companies that pay pretty high fees to the NFL/NCAA/whatever (Met-rx or EAS), which effectively leaves out many of our favorite companies and their supplements. FWIW.

**Steel_UK** · May 6th, 2009, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildstang

awwww! now you guys are making me feel bad for running a few cycles off aas in the past to look as huge as i am now....lol

Whatever you do don't go to a proper powerlifting place, they'll rip you to shreds.

assumptions made on powerlifting place being also a proper one by being properly natural and not steroid enhanced freaks who have early death wishes

**wil** · May 6th, 2009, 02:49 PM

Good thing I'm too cheap... err... frugal ... to buy any supplements.

So I am natural... naturally kinda sorta strong... and naturally kinda sorta chubby (my wife tells me I'm not, but I think she's required by law to try to boost my spirits).

**mooshue** · May 6th, 2009, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tidalwave

My first takeaway lesson is that even a supplement I bought at Wal Mart can make you 'chemically enhanced' in the eyes of some.

the real lesson should be no such thing as something good from wal mart that can be ingested, period!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

unless you count bottled water, and even then that is claimed to not be so good for you lol

**tidalwave** · May 6th, 2009, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mooshue

the real lesson should be no such thing as something good from wal mart that can be ingested, period!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

unless you count bottled water, and even then that is claimed to not be so good for you lol

I eat Chinese food from time to time, so I imagine that's the same as foodstuffs at Wal Mart. Amirite?

**A1food4U** · May 6th, 2009, 04:22 PM

Kinda a wierd paradox... Chinese food made in america vs. american store goods made in china..HMMMMMMM

**bouncer** · May 12th, 2009, 10:45 AM

I share this frustration. I jumped on the DHEA bandwagon from an anti-aging standpoint (your mind does things to ya when you are closing the gap on 50) and I've since found out that it's banned from a lot of natural federations. Once again, if I compete, I would have to wait 2 years since my last little white pill. Mounting that frustration is the fact that there are people who cheat the system with AAS while entering natural shows. Oh, well. It is what it is.

**wildstang** · May 13th, 2009, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel_UK

Whatever you do don't go to a proper powerlifting place, they'll rip you to shreds.

assumptions made on powerlifting place being also a proper one by being properly natural and not steroid enhanced freaks who have early death wishes

im not woried about what people have to say about anything. everyones entitled to their own opinion. but 4 the record ive stood side by side with many a powerlifter during my time and never been torn apart.lol
and as far as an early death wish goes theres plenty of otc even more deadly then aas. it all boils down to how smartly (educated) one utilizes an product.

**Steel_UK** · May 13th, 2009, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildstang

im not woried about what people have to say about anything. everyones entitled to their own opinion. but 4 the record ive stood side by side with many a powerlifter during my time and never been torn apart.lol

Don't visit my place then. Everyone is ripping everyone, unless something "different" appears (e.g. someone on AAS becomes known of being on AAS and doesn't admit) and then said individual gets a ripping for the entire training session.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildstang

and as far as an early death wish goes theres plenty of otc even more deadly then aas. it all boils down to how smartly (educated) one utilizes an product.

I'm thinking on long term basis here, something that there isn't an awful lot of information on at the moment either is there?