Dorsal muscles and squats

[Lomez]

Hi. I'm new to the board and I've got two questions about stength training. First, I've always heard that abs are one of the fastest healing muscles and indeed, I can do ab work every day with good results. I was wondering, since they're in the opposite side of the body, is it the same for dorsal muscles? As in, the ones you exercise in back extensions.

Also, I'm doing squats and deadlifts 3 times a week (5x5 and 1x5, respectively). If they can be worked out every day, are there any benefits for my form and/or weight lifted from doing ab or dorsal work on the days between squats?

[DEALER]

I'm doing squats and deadlifts 3 times a week (5x5 and 1x5, respectively). If they can be worked out every day, are there any benefits for my form and/or weight lifted from doing ab or dorsal work on the days between squats?

Two things:

1) I wouldn't call the ab training beneficial, I would call it prerequisite. It is crucial that you have a strong core when squatting and deadlifting. If not, you will soon have more weight on the bar than your lower back is prepared to handle, and you will end up like me with an irritating lower back injury. Rehab is no fun.

2) I would be concerned about squatting and deadlifting three times a week (if using any significant amount of weight). I would be concerned about over training, and again, lower back injury.

Good luck to ya, train smart my friend.

[tooncesthecat]

I agree that squatting and deadlifting 3 times a week is too much. With that said, deads and other exercises such as bent over rows, bent over delt raises, cable rows, etc will hit the lower back (erectors) to a great extent as well as squats delt presses (in a stabalizing role) so I wouldn't be too concerned about working them any more.

[Lomez]

About overtraining, I'm just starting out, and so far I've been able to raise the weight every session (just got to 1 BW), so I guess I'll worry about it when my progress stalls?

Dealer, I do core training in addition. Weighted sit ups and back extensions after every session. I was just wondering if I could also use the other days since they're fast healing muscles, but you seem to agree that would be too much. Thanks for the answers, everyone.

[n10city]

Muscle recovery and resistance to fatigue depend on many components, but do not correspond necessarily to opposing sides of the body. Muscles that are made of slow twitch fibers (generate more ATP) can be trained more often, mainly calves and forearms, and abs to a less extent due to some incorporation of your serratus and hip flexor muscles. While muscles comprised of fast twitch, type II, generating very explosive movements and typically take much longer to recover (more on fiber types).

Example: I do abs every other or every 3rd day. I deadlift (Lumbar) every 5th or 6th day. Back (dorsal) is done every 3rd to 5th day.

[DEALER]

Dealer, I do core training in addition. Weighted sit ups and back extensions after every session. I was just wondering if I could also use the other days since they're fast healing muscles, but you seem to agree that would be too much. Thanks for the answers, everyone.

Lomez, I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say? Are you asking if we think it's ok to train abs on days your not deadlifting & squatting? Or vice versa?

Here is what I will say, the guys around this forum are knowledgeable and very helpful. They helped me a tonne when I was getting started.

Just search the posts and find a program/split that works best for you. When you are just starting out, you'll make a lot of progress quickly no matter what you are doing, just be smart and don't hurt yourself. It's easy to get over enthusiastic at first as you see the strength increasing, but take it slow...

[wil]

Through personal experience and research I have found that I make the best gains when I deadlift no more than once per week (especially if I'm pulling heavy). And I don't think there is anything wrong with squatting 3x per week as long as one of those sessions is a de-load where you give yourself a chance to recover properly from the heavier days.

But then everybody is different in how they respond to the wide range of volume and intensity.

Just my 2 cents.

[torofuerte]

Uhmmm, dude, the dorsal muscle is not the opposite (or antagonist) of the abdominals.

These are the dorsal/muscles (the latissimus dorsi, the fabled lats), courtesy of wiki:



The erector spinae is the opposite of the abdominals (courtesy of exrx.net)



Now that clear that up...

I don't think squatting 3 times a week is too much, specially if done at 5x5. And some forms of dead lifting (.ie. Romanian) could also be done three times a week, 5x5.

I'd be more concerned about the total volume that hits the lower back

1. within in a given day,
2. within a week, and
3. within a 48 hour period.

The StrongLift's 5x5 calls for 5 sets of squats at 5-rep range followed by 1 (not 5 but 1) set of dead lifts at 5 reps, three times a week.

That should be sufficient stimulus to make gains (gains directly dependent on other factors of the individual such as diet, sleep patterns, age and level of fitness.)

Having said that, there are some rules of thumb to consider:

• Daily squatting or deadlifting (as the OP asked) should be a no-no. Your lower back requires at least 48 hours of rest to recover from a heavy work out. This will dictate how frequently you can do squatting (now if your squatting is simply a 2-3 of sets at 10 reps and you are in good shape, the you should be able to do that every day if you so desired.)
  
• If you squat heavily for bodybuilding purposes (say, 5 sets 8-12 reps, close to failure, on top of other things like leg presses and isolation work), or squat at near-max, you should not try to repeat the same again within a week's period. One gives you a shitload of volume, the other one is nuking the living crap out of your CNS. Doing either more frequently than that will guarantee a lower back fuck up.
  
• Dead lifting with high volume (5+ sets, 8+ reps) is not only a waste of time, but it will certainly fatigue your erector spinae. Better to use it as form of 5x5, no more than 3 times a week, or in some form of power lifting program (ie. WS4SB) - see previous point.
  
• Exercising is not algebra. You can't ponder 'if I do X for Y number of days, I make Z gains. So if I do X for X+1 number of times, I'll make X+something gains.' It doesn't work like that.

[joey9]

Dorsal means "relating to or situated near or on the back, especially of an animal, or of one of its parts", according to Merriam-Webster.

There are dorsal muscles in the back of the hand, which are called the "Dorsal interossei of the hand". There are also dorsal neck muscles, as well as a "dorsal sacrococcygeus muscle", down in the "taint" area.

So looks like we got lots of dorsal muscles!

[n10city]

Speaking of sacrums and deadlifts, has anybody else ever adjusted (chiropractic) their coccyx (might have even been the saccrum, i'm not a chiro) by doing heavy deadlifts or weighted wide grip pullups? I did the deadlift a few weeks ago, quite an experience... Things moving that probably shouldn't be.