So much Cardio

**Sasaku** · June 23rd, 2005, 08:35 PM

Latley I have been doing about 4 hours worth of cardio (swimming/high intensity plyometric routine) a day training and I have had trouble maintaining my weight. I was wondering as long as I am eating until satisfaction(feels like glutony most of the time) and consuming good foods with proper macronutrient proportions do I really need to worry about this weight falling off? Also, couldn't the weight drop be muscle converting to endurence muscle, and has anyone else had this problem too?

**whatabetty** · June 28th, 2005, 06:49 AM

If your going by weight,it can be very frustating. In my training, I do 2 to 3 hours of traing in a day including weights. I have not changed a pound in weight, but shed off 2 inches around my waste.Muscle does weigh more than fat. Maybe measure yourself in inches.

**Old_Fart2** · June 28th, 2005, 08:00 AM

You could be entering a catabolic state; your body is eating your muscle for fuel. That's a lot of cardio. Maybe you need to up your carbs.

**Sasaku** · June 28th, 2005, 08:57 AM

I am eating alot. I am never hungry and consume about 4-5k calories a day, plenty of everything throughout about 9-12 meals a day.

**Old_Fart2** · June 28th, 2005, 10:45 AM

I'm thinking maybe just change the percentage of carbs in your diet; keep the over-all calories the same. You're probably needing more fuel for your workouts.

Of courses, if you're losing weight, you're essentially burning more calories than you're taking in.

**Thanatos** · June 30th, 2005, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old_Fart2

I'm thinking maybe just change the percentage of carbs in your diet; keep the over-all calories the same. You're probably needing more fuel for your workouts.

Of courses, if you're losing weight, you're essentially burning more calories than you're taking in.

I agree....Good Advise

**whatabetty** · July 1st, 2005, 07:13 AM

Do you use a heart rate moniter so you can tell how many calories you're burning a day with your workouts? That might help you on how many calories you should be taking in.

neopro · July 3rd, 2005, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sasaku

Latley I have been doing about 4 hours worth of cardio (swimming/high intensity plyometric routine) a day training and I have had trouble maintaining my weight. I was wondering as long as I am eating until satisfaction(feels like glutony most of the time) and consuming good foods with proper macronutrient proportions do I really need to worry about this weight falling off? Also, couldn't the weight drop be muscle converting to endurence muscle, and has anyone else had this problem too?

There are some basic guidelines for endurance athletes to follow for feuling your workouts. Depending on the intensity of your workouts you can determine if you are getting enough carbohydrate, protien and fat.

As a simple rule of thumb eating 2.5 grams of carb per lb of bodywieght daily is adequate for feuling low intensity endurance workouts (>65% of max hr). More intense workouts can require up to 4 grams of carb per lb of bodywieght.

You shoud aim for 0.5 grams of protien per lb of bodywieght. Additional protien is usually converted to carb and ends up stored in the adipose tissue. This is the new standard for endurance athletes concerning protien.

Eating during the course of your workout is also a crucial component of training and you should aim to consume btwn 46-60 grams of carb per hour. A powebar or gels combined with a sports drink is necesary for feuling workouts lasting >90 minutes.

It is up to you to decide if you want to keep the weight coming off. Based on your caloric intake I would imagine you can afford to let some more come off and lower your overall bf%. Once you have reached your ideal wieght for endurance sports your wieght will stabilize and should remain consistent.

**whatabetty** · July 3rd, 2005, 08:52 PM

hey neopro, I've heard that if you do the gels during ( for example during a triathlon event) that you need to keep taking them every 30 minutes (with the water) or you'll crash before your done with the event. What's your opinion? Also I read in the Tri magazine that the gels and water aspect runs a really fine line to not have GI issues during the run. What do you think?

Ineffable · July 5th, 2005, 10:24 AM

Here are a couple of really good diets from a company that has done 10,000+ diets

http://www.amazonsupplements.com/gai...t-quickly.html
http://www.amazonsupplements.com/fat...gain-diet.html

**Sasaku** · July 6th, 2005, 01:20 PM

Thanks for the info, however

You shoud aim for 0.5 grams of protien per lb of bodywieght. Additional protien is usually converted to carb and ends up stored in the adipose tissue. This is the new standard for endurance athletes concerning protien.

Dosn't protein help with recovery and building new muscle? How could reducing the intake of protein help? Wouldn't endurence athletes need a much higher intake because they are the ones who are continuosly using their muscles in activity?

**Brock Samson** · July 7th, 2005, 07:38 AM

One can go as high as 0.9 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight during intense periods of the season but that is all the body requires, the rest is converted to sugar and used for energy or stored as fat.

The body can only digest 25 grams of protein at a time so whenever one drinks a 50 gram protein shake the majority of the additonal protein is converted to carbs. This is all info you can find in Carmichaels Food For Fitness. He gives great examples, my favorite is how he has helped NFL players from scarfing down 4-6 chicken breasts per meal...

sounds crazy but its true!

Ineffable · July 7th, 2005, 07:54 AM

Brock Samson

Not too sure where you got the idea that anymore than 0.9 grams of protein converts to sugar or is used for energy or stored as fat.

My brother has a kidney disease and is allowed 75 grams of protein at 150lbs. Pretty sure his doctor knows what he is doing. Since the disease is stable at 0.5 grams... not sure an athlete would NOT need more than that.

The U.S. recommended daily allowance is 45-63 grams of protein for men and 44-50 grams of protein for women. This is a generic figure and does NOT take into account body-weight or activity level.

I happen to live in the same area as two of the best bodybuilding/sports nutritionsit in the world and they will tell you 1g-2g of protein per pound of body weight, with scientific data to back it up, along with 10,000+ diets unders their belts each.

If you have some scientific data as to the body NOT being able to use more than 25 grams of protein I would be interested in reading it.

This 25 grams is highly subjective and not objective. The amount of protein one CAN digest is going to be based on gender, weight, physical-actvity-level, type of protein, digestive enzymes, and more...

Ineffable · July 7th, 2005, 08:05 AM

Sasaku

Like I have posted several times before, because of my workout partner's job, he does an inordinate (freaky) amount of cardio. More than 99% of the population and can and has done even more than that. He uses a few supplements.

I'll mention a few. He will use Beverly International Muscle Provider Protein or Beverly International Mass Maker Protein instead of or in addition to meals.

He will use a creatine blend before a heavy cardio workout, such as MuscleTech Cell-TECH.

This is quite nifty DURING his extreme cardio workout, he will use a product called Clif-Shot. This is a terrific energy and complex carbohydrate gel that you can squeeze out while running.

I am not promoting any site, but you can find more information on Clif Shot here:
http://www.amazonsupplements.com/clif-shots.html

After the workout, he will use Cytomax, Endurox R4, and/or Optimum Nutrition AfterMax for recovery. These all work really well.

**Brock Samson** · July 7th, 2005, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ineffable

Brock Samson

Not too sure where you got the idea that anymore than 0.9 grams of protein converts to sugar or is used for energy or stored as fat.

My brother has a kidney disease and is allowed 75 grams of protein at 150lbs. Pretty sure his doctor knows what he is doing. Since the disease is stable at 0.5 grams... not sure an athlete would NOT need more than that.

The U.S. recommended daily allowance is 45-63 grams of protein for men and 44-50 grams of protein for women. This is a generic figure and does NOT take into account body-weight or activity level.

I happen to live in the same area as two of the best bodybuilding/sports nutritionsit in the world and they will tell you 1g-2g of protein per pound of body weight, with scientific data to back it up, along with 10,000+ diets unders their belts each.

If you have some scientific data as to the body NOT being able to use more than 25 grams of protein I would be interested in reading it.

This 25 grams is highly subjective and not objective. The amount of protein one CAN digest is going to be based on gender, weight, physical-actvity-level, type of protein, digestive enzymes, and more...

The Recommended Daily Allownace for protein is 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight (approx 0.35 grams per pound), and the average American diet provides close to twice that amount. For a long time, athletes have been gulping down massive portions of protein in the form of shakes, powders, raw eggs, tuna fish, and lots of meat. They fugure they needed it for energy and for the amino-acid building blocks their bodies require for muscle growth and repair as well as immune system maintenance. The problem is, science has shown that consuming above .09 grams of protein per pound per day has no additional benefits. You can convert some of the excess to glycogen in the liver, and much of the rest is converted to fat for storage. Oversuplementation is a waste of money.

That is a small excerpt from Chris Carmichaels Food for Fitness. The book also covers the other points I made and I highly advise reading it. Also consider we are talking about endurance athletes, not bodybuiding and 25 grams is the ideal amount a 150lb male (me) can digest efficiently in one setting, anymore than that amount is a waste of money and provides no additional benefit to my training. I will eat 5 meals throughout the day and aim for about 15 grams of protein per meal. Getting off the bike and drinking a 50 gram protein shake is a good idea if I weigh 300 lbs, but since I weigh 150, I cannot use anymore than 25 grams of protein at any point during the day so I usually have a about 20 grams of protein after a training session...

Ineffable · July 7th, 2005, 08:49 PM

Brock--

Here is a protein intake question and answer from Will Brink.

Q: Hey Will, I was told by a trainer in my gym that 30 grams of protein is the upper limit a person can digest, but he could not tell me where that rule comes from. He said it was a "known fact" and walked away when I questioned his source. So what is the deal with this 30 gram rule? Is this guy full of it or should I worry about it? My stats are: 5'9" and 220lbs with about 10% bodyfat. I lift weights (heavy!) 4 days per week and do aerobics 2-3 day per week.

Thank you, Tod Lopez

A: It has been a long debated topic how much protein a person can digest at any one time. Nutritionists and doctors have maintained for decades that "people can only digest 30 grams at a time of protein and any additional protein is wasted or converted to fat." So say the powers that be. Now, I wish I could examine the study or research they are basing this advice on so I could dispute it but I can't. Why you ask? Because in all my years of searching the medical data banks, talking to researchers, and falling asleep in the medical library after hours of reading, I have been unable to find exactly where this advice comes from or what it's based on. At one time, I went so far as to offer a reward to anyone who could show me a recent study that showed that 30 grams of protein was the upper limit anyone could digest, regardless of age, weight, and activity levels. Why is it 30 grams? Why not 28 or 35? Are we saying that the digestive and absorptive abilities of a 285 pound 23 year old football player is the same as a 50 year old 115 pound women? Now digestion is a very complex topic. Many people think you eat some protein, it mixes with some acid or something, gets broken down into amino acids, gets taken up into the body, and everyone is happy. I wish it were that simple. As with all foods, the breakdown of protein starts in the mouth with the simple chewing of food and the exposer to certain enzymes. In the stomach, food mixes with enzymes and other factors such as lipase, pepsin, intrinsic factor, and of course HCL (stomach acid). It moves onto the small intestine and then the large intestine.The small intestine is considered the major anatomical site of food digestion and nutrient absorption and is made up of section such as the duodenum, jejunum, and the ileum. Pancreatic enzymes (chymotrypsin, trypsin, etc.), bile salts, gastrin, cholecystokinin, pepidases, as well as many others factors are released here. The large intestine is composed of the ascending colon, transverse colon, descending colon, and the sigmoid colon, which all play a part in absorbing the nutrients we eat. Sound complicated? It is. Believe me, I am leaving out a great deal of information so you wont fall asleep reading my little column! Suffice it to say, digestion is a very complicated thing and there are many places along the chain of digestion that can both enhance and degrade a persons ability to absorb the foods we eat. There is no reason to think that among this complicated process that there are not wide individual differences in a persons ability to digest and absorb protein. For some person who is inactive, elderly, and for what ever reason lives with compromised digestion, 30 grams of protein at one sitting might very well be too much for them to handle. By the same token, assuming a 220lbs healthy athlete is unable to exceed 30 grams of protein in one sitting is neither proven by medial science or even logical in my view. So what if the 30 gram rule turns out to be true? If we examine some of the more recent studies on the protein requirements of athletes done by researchers from both the United Sates and Canada , we come to some recommended protein intakes that far exceed the RDAs, some times by as mush as 225%! These researchers came to the conclusion that protein intakes for athletes should range from approximately 1.2 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight for endurance athletes and up to 1.8g of protein per kg for strength training athletes. For a 200 pound bodybuilder-a strength training athlete-that would be approximately 164 grams of protein per day (most bodybuilders I know eat considerably more protein per day, but that's for another fight and another article...). Assuming that 30 grams of protein is the most anyone can digest, absorb, and utilize, this person would have to split his intake into about five meals (164 divided by 30 = 5.47). So, given the advice by many people that 30 grams is all anyone can digest at a single sitting, it appears a person can achieve the goal of 30 grams of protein per meal even with the higher intakes recommended in the modern research (assuming they are willing or able to eat five meals per day). However, if you happen to eat more than that per meal as a healthy athlete I don't think you have anything to worry about. I wont tell anyone. Me, I would suggest you stick to the one gram per pound of bodyweight rule, which often exceeds the research mentioned above. Also, read the "Protein Myth" article at the BrinkZone site for more info on this topic.

Ineffable · July 7th, 2005, 11:03 PM

I'll reply to my own reply. I asked your questions to John Parrillo and Beverly (The Protein Kings and creator of more than 10,000 successful diets). I'll let you know what they say.

I found some more information on the amount of protein you can digest/process from Will Brink. And from what I know, the three sources I named know as much about protein as anyone involved in sports/bodybuilding

This piece applies to ENDURANCE athletes. Here is part of the article. You can read the rest by following the link below.

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In a recent review paper on the subject one of the top researchers in the field (Dr. Peter Lemon) states "...These data suggest that the RDA for those engaged in regular endurance exercise should be about 1.2-1.4 grams of protein/kilogram of body mass (150%-175% of the current RDA) and 1.7 - 1.8 grams of protein/kilogram of body mass per day (212%-225% of the current RDA) for strength exercisers."

Another group of researchers in the field of protein metabolism have come to similar conclusions repeatedly. They found that strength training athletes eating approximately the RDA/RNI for protein showed a decreased whole body protein synthesis (losing muscle jack!) on a protein intake of 0.86 grams per kilogram of bodyweight. They came to an almost identical conclusion as that of Dr. Lemon in recommending at least 1.76g per kilogram of bodyweight per day for strength training athletes for staying in positive nitrogen balance/increases in whole body protein synthesis.

This same group found in later research that endurance athletes also need far more protein than the RDA/RNI and that men catabolize (break down) more protein than women during endurance exercise.

They concluded "In summary, protein requirements for athletes performing strength training are greater than sedentary individuals and are above the current Canadian and US recommended daily protein intake requirements for young healthy males." All I can say to that is, no sh%# Sherlock?!
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http://www.brinkzone.com/protein.html

**Brock Samson** · July 8th, 2005, 12:46 AM

OMG Thanks for the info and good luck with your training!

Ineffable · July 8th, 2005, 08:06 AM

Brock--

Sure. I like doing research and learning about just about anything. Is that a picture of you on the biks?

**Brock Samson** · July 8th, 2005, 09:46 AM

That pic is Robbie McEwen

I suggest you do some research of your own and read Optimum Sports Nutrition by Michael Colgan. Edmond Burke and Chris Carmichael have also contributed huge amounts of information pertaining to the endurance athlete and their dietary requirements and you could benefit in your quest for knowledge concerning how to fuel your body.

Consider I've won many races and I've come to know what my body needs and it is exactly what these top ENDURANCE athlete coaches recommend so unless you can provide race winnings I don't think your friends advice can compare with the results I can provide. Your data is stating 1.2 per kilogram which is only slightly higher than 0.9. Anyways data is great but I prefer winning and will continue to use 0.6-0.9 grams per lb of bodywieght as advised by the three leading endurance coaches mentioned above.

You have to consider there are many different approaches to diet and I know what works for me. I am very lean and that is how I am able to race my best. Check the blog section for more info...