Hughes vs. Penn 2

**eqpfunk** · September 17th, 2006, 09:56 PM

Who ya got? I see this being a close fight but I believe Hughes will take it by decision or ref stoppage. The longer the fight lasts, the greater Hughes' chances of winning are.

**liza larence** · September 17th, 2006, 10:13 PM

Penn has a goobered-up neck (disc problems from what I hear),,,so if Matt cranks on it for long....well, it wont be pretty!

**Goose102** · September 17th, 2006, 10:35 PM

Wow, i can't wait much longer. I wanna see this fight so bad. I'm going with Hughes on this one.

iancobb00 · September 18th, 2006, 05:32 PM

My guess would be that Hughes will be less cautious this time around. It will probably resemble rounds 2 and 3 of the Penn/St. Pierre.

iancobb00 · September 24th, 2006, 12:52 AM

I think I was pretty close... I thought the fight looked similar to Penn/St. Pierre with Penn controlling the upright until later, at which point he gased. Then he lost on the ground...
I think it is more important to mention threethings:
1) I think Penn is a whiny rich boy who quits when things get tough. Whenever he starts to lose, his opponents get "accidental" cheap-shots. When he fought Pulver, he kicked him in the groin twice. When he fought Rush, he thumbed him in the eye; the same thing happend tonight. I don't want my dislike for Penn to skew my analysis, but it does get a little rediculous.
2) Hughes is a much more fluid striker than people give him credit for. If he stopped relying on takedowns so much, learned to keep his hands up, and put chains together, he could really be something on his feet.
3) St. Pierre looked much more impressive on the ground against Penn than Hughes did tonight. I think St. Pierre has an excellent chance in their second fight, especially considering the fact that that he was controlling the fight fairly well until he got scared in the armbar. I think he could be the next champ.

**eqpfunk** · September 24th, 2006, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iancobb00

I think I was pretty close... I thought the fight looked similar to Penn/St. Pierre with Penn controlling the upright until later, at which point he gased. Then he lost on the ground...
I think it is more important to mention threethings:
1) I think Penn is a whiny rich boy who quits when things get tough. Whenever he starts to lose, his opponents get "accidental" cheap-shots. When he fought Pulver, he kicked him in the groin twice. When he fought Rush, he thumbed him in the eye; the same thing happend tonight. I don't want my dislike for Penn to skew my analysis, but it does get a little rediculous.
2) Hughes is a much more fluid striker than people give him credit for. If he stopped relying on takedowns so much, learned to keep his hands up, and put chains together, he could really be something on his feet.
3) St. Pierre looked much more impressive on the ground against Penn than Hughes did tonight. I think St. Pierre has an excellent chance in their second fight, especially considering the fact that that he was controlling the fight fairly well until he got scared in the armbar. I think he could be the next champ.

I completely agree. I don't think the thumb by Penn was intentional but kinda weird that the same exact thing happened to GSP too. Penn's BJJ and flexibility is amazing though. I thought Hughes was done on more than one occassion. I too thought Hughes' hands looked quite crisp in the third round, but he's gotta keep his hands up after his combos and jabs. He got caught on a few occasions, good thing his chin is fairly solid. I'll agree that GSP looked better on the ground vs. Penn but in the end better conditioning and pure brute force won the day. Hughes had Penn pinned and there was absolutely nothing he could do. The fact that Hughes finished the fight makes this more impressive for me then GSP vs. Penn. I think that GSP will eventually beat Hughes though. The question is will it be this year, or further down the road.

**Ripped Fetish** · September 24th, 2006, 06:48 PM

It was a good fight. I dont know how unintentional that thumb was because Penn's thumb was pointing out when he threw the punch and Matt didnt move his head and the thumb connected perfectly on Matt's eye. But anyway, it was great to see Matt stop Penn and have a decisive win rather than a decision that could be debated.

**liza larence** · September 24th, 2006, 08:45 PM

That WAS a good fight!
Loved Matt's "crucifixion" pin while he conked BJ's noggin with his knuckles

**thisisphil03** · September 25th, 2006, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iancobb00

1) I think Penn is a whiny rich boy who quits when things get tough. Whenever he starts to lose, his opponents get "accidental" cheap-shots. When he fought Pulver, he kicked him in the groin twice. When he fought Rush, he thumbed him in the eye; the same thing happend tonight. I don't want my dislike for Penn to skew my analysis, but it does get a little rediculous.

I agree with most of what you said, but I don't think the thumb was intentional, and imo he was winning the fight when the thumb was in the eye.

Personally, I wanted BJ to win, but it is what it is. Matt was without a doubt losing to BJ, and BJ gassed (although on his website, he claims that a rib separated before the end of the second round, and that's why he was so tired in the third). His interview also goes on to say that he did train his cardio a bit, for 5-6 rounds a day. I don't know how true that will be, because he definitely looked tired. But if his rib was separated, it would explain a little better on why he was so tired.

Props to Matt for hanging in there at the end of the second round. I thought for sure he was gone. That triangle from the back looked pretty nasty, and then he got caught in the armbar. If his arm was tucked a little closer to his neck, he'd have been put to sleep and woke up with a broken arm imo.

Also thanks to Big John McCarthy for giving a decent stop. I hated how Shamrock Ortiz was stopped by Herb McDean (I think that's who reffed that fight) so soon. Big John gave BJ a legitimate chance to escape, but he couldn't so he made the correct call.

iancobb00 · September 25th, 2006, 05:58 PM

Yeah, Herb, although being the only one with an MMA record (1-1-0), tends to stop fights rather early; he's generally the one involved with the controversial fights.
The triangle from the back is one of my favorites. As a JKD guy, I like quirky trapping techniques (eg. From the guard, you can take your left leg and push on the right bicep. Once the arm is extended, use your right leg to hook the right arm. It's pretty cool.); from the back, I like to catch the arm with my leg and pull the arm under the back--it's kind of like a shoulder lock trap...leaves your opponent very exposed.
From what I saw, BJ didn't have the choke on at all. His body was very extended, and he must have been using a lot of energy trying to hold on. However, he was gased at the beginning of the round. I wonder if it might be the inverse of their first fight; I think it's possible Hughes might have caught him with one of those shots.
The most likely answer is that Penn doesn't train very hard. I think the thing about the ribs is a cop out; I don't remember Hughes ever landing a devastating rib shot or seeing Penn look hurt. A couple weeks ago, I saw this happen to a guy. He yelped in pain and had to stop. I don't buy this excuse. They mentioned that Penn didn't like training full time. I think he's a lazy, whiny, rich kid who gives up every time the fight goes past the first round--hence the reason Ortiz likes him. I back this up by looking at his fights with Pulver, St. Pierre, and the most recent with Hughes.

**thisisphil03** · September 25th, 2006, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iancobb00

The most likely answer is that Penn doesn't train very hard.

Actually, he was quoted as saying he doesn't like to train at all. He says training makes him lose his motivation during the fight. Go figure. BJ can probably beat most of the lw and mw divisions without training, but lacks the desire to train and be the best. I think he's the single most naturally talented fighter in the ufc, maybe pride, but without training, he's not going to win belts and/or be able to keep them. He's a fighter who fights for himself. Doesn't care about fans (if he did, he'd train to win). The thing is, BJ knows he's talented. I think he fights the first couple rounds to a win, then just gives up fighting the rest of the match. I'd love to see him take it to the next level, but I don't see him being able to motivate himself enough.

And what about his takedown defense. I have never seen anyone with as good of takedown defense. Sure he was taken down in the third, since he was all tired and stuff, but when he was fresh, Hughes had a lot of trouble taking him down. Would have liked to see him get that gogoplata choke on Hughes also. Not as much of a shock since he tried pulling it on GSP, but still would have been nice to see. I've only seen one fighter actually finish a pro mma match with one.

Mr.Noodle · September 25th, 2006, 08:42 PM

I thought it was one of the better PPVS.
It flowed well, and didn't drag on like the Arlovski/Silvia 2 PPV.

I think Mat Hughes is overrated, and I hope GSP kicks his ass.
If Penn had done just a bit more cardio, he would've beaten Hughes for sure.
When I was watching the starting of the 3rd round I was thinking "WTF is Penn doing?"...until I realized he totally gased out.

Anyways it was a good fight, and GSP will be the new champion.

iancobb00 · September 26th, 2006, 11:44 PM

I'll give you GSP as being the top in the class. But there's no way Penn at his finest could ever beat Hughes.

**thisisphil03** · September 27th, 2006, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iancobb00

I'll give you GSP as being the top in the class. But there's no way Penn at his finest could ever beat Hughes.

Seriously? First he's already beat Hughes. Second, he made Hughes look like an amateur the first two rounds. Here is Mr. World Class wrestler, can't even take him down. How can you say he could never beat him? What do you base that on? Your dislike for him? Talent is talent. BJ>Hughes talentwise. Hughes>BJ cardio/heart wise.

**eqpfunk** · September 27th, 2006, 01:13 AM

I'm a huge fan of Matt Hughes, but even I can agree that Penn has more raw fighting talent than Hughes and probably even GSP. He's a freakin' contortionist that can grapple and box. Hughes and GSP, on the other hand, are more well rounded athletes and have superior strength, conditioning and work ethic, which is how they won.

**liza larence** · September 27th, 2006, 07:06 AM

GSP is my personal favorite, too...but I wish he hadnt said "you did not impress me" to Hughes right at the end of his fight...seemed kinda "snarky" and unsportsmanlike for the usually gentlemanly GSP.

Mr.Noodle · September 27th, 2006, 07:14 AM

I dont think that he wanted to say that, I'm sure a promoter told him to go into the octagon and say that to Hughes.
I mean it was meant to hype up the fight, aren't we talking about it now?
GSP was shaking hands with Hughes and his trainers after he made the comment, so I think it was staged.

**thisisphil03** · September 27th, 2006, 01:53 PM

^ ya fighters try to hype their fights all the time

**PowerHouse** · September 27th, 2006, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thisisphil03

Seriously? First he's already beat Hughes. Second, he made Hughes look like an amateur the first two rounds. Here is Mr. World Class wrestler, can't even take him down. How can you say he could never beat him? What do you base that on? Your dislike for him? Talent is talent. BJ>Hughes talentwise. Hughes>BJ cardio/heart wise.

You couldn't be any further away from the truth there. There was no domination in the first 2 rounds a domination would have to be like 10-8 or something which it was not. Sure Penn won the first 2 rounds there is no question about it. But in no way did Penn make Hughes look like a amateur. If you want to see somone looking like an amateur watch GSP vs Trigg.

Hughes is lb for lb the best fighter IMO and people are upset because they cant get rid of him. Now hopefully he will beat GSP again, which I believe he will.

**thisisphil03** · September 27th, 2006, 05:37 PM

Round scores are skewed imo. They gave Hughes some points for trying the takedown. The first round should have been a 10-8. Hughes did nothing to hurt BJ. His takedown attempts were weak. His standup looked sloppy. The second round was a bit closer, with the elbows and shots from top position from Hughes, but with the last 1/4th of the round having Hughes almost being submitted could have been a 10-8, but I can see why they gave the 10-9.

I have nothing against Hughes; actually he is one of my fav fighters. But Penn was the more skilled fighter that night. No question about it. Ya ya, he gassed, seperated a rib, whatever. He is lb. for lb. the most naturally talented MMA fighter. How many other fighters can go from lightweight to heavyweight and still hold their own?