Most Effective Martial Arts

pumpingiron · May 21st, 2007, 10:03 PM

When I say "effective", I mean for self-defense on the street, no rules and no time limits. I'll assume that you are not planning to use a weapon (because of the huge legal consequences), but that it is possible that you will fight someone with a weapon. Here's what I think matters (in order of importance):

1.The Ground Game - the majority of fights end up on the ground. Therefore, being able to work for position on the ground and knowledge of submissions are obviously the most important aspect of a street fight. The only situation in which this doesn't work as well involves multiple opponents, although honestly defeating multiple opponents with standing submissions is conceivably as effective as using standup.

2.Takedowns and throws - most fights end up on the ground, and getting a dominant position is important. Takedowns and throws are the best ways to immediately attain a dominant position. Also, in a street fight a throw can be extremely effective way to hurt an opponent. Being thrown on concrete can potential knock someone unconcious or otherwise hurt them. Getting a quick throw could also help against multiple opponents.

3.Live sparring - this is the most underrated aspect of a martial art, and it is the reason why martials arts such as brazilian jiu-jitsu and muay thai have proved so effective. Learning technique is no replacement for learning to apply that technique to a live, resisting opponent. Many martial arts such as traditional Japanese Jiu-Jitsu (pre-modern) and some types of Kung Fu contain extremely dangerous moves that prevent live sparring. By removing some of the more dangerous moves, martial arts such as BJJ allow practioners to apply devastating moves against resisting opponents, which is a huge benefit. Sparring regularly is also a great way to prevent yourself from gassing in an actual fight.

4.Standup - Even if most fights end up on the ground, it's helpful to do some damage standing up and hold your own. The effectiveness of standup is also increased in martial arts that allow live full-contact sparring.

5.Skills against weapons - obviously this is important if your opponent ends up having a weapon.

6.Brutal moves - it could prove helpful to know the really dirty techniques (e.g. eye gouging) although honestly I think this is an overrated factor. You can't do full force sparring with moves that maim or kill, which means it's tough to say how well you could apply them in a real fight. But having some familiarity with these techniques might end up helping out in real situation.

Based on these factors (especially live sparring), here's my opinion:

1.Sambo - if you study under someone who knows both combat sambo and sport sambo, you'll learn solid takedowns (taken from many traditions), arm and leg locks (although generally not chokes), plus effective standup including against weapons.

2.Judo - plenty of throws, learning to get position on the ground, and a lot of schools teach plenty of submissions (although you need to be sure you find one)

3.Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu - Generally regarded as the best for the ground game, and most schools will teach you *at least* a few takedowns/throws and a low leg kick to set them up. Some schools even spend a bit of time on elbows and punches for self-defense purposes.

4.San Shou - Chinese version of Kickboxing, including many techniques similar to Muay Thai + takedowns. Especially effective because it teaches you to transition from standup to the ground.

5.Wrestling (Freestyle, Greco, whatever) - Good for takedowns which sets up some ground and pound, unless you have a run in with someone who knows submissions this can be very effective.

6.Boxing and Muay Thai - Good for standup, plenty of live sparring.

If any sees any problems with my reasonsing, chime in.

Weiser_Cain · May 22nd, 2007, 02:15 AM

running for a cop

**TheManWhoCan** · May 22nd, 2007, 11:33 AM

I don't agree with any of those personally. The ground fighting is over-rated in a real fight situation. It isn't effective enough compared to striking. The reason is because with striking you can end a fight in a second or two. Grappling requires multiple steps, and takes too much time to really get to a dominant place. Secondly, by the time you are in that place, his friends could come over and boot you in the head. You'll have no way of winning as you can't grapple more then 1 person at a time. And if your opponent has a weapon of any kind, he'll be using that instead, and since you're so close to him, he's never going to miss. Way too dangerous.

An effective defense system is Jeet Kune Do. The basis of the whole art is effectiveness, and that's exactally what you want when you're in a fight.

pumpingiron · May 22nd, 2007, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheManWhoCan

I don't agree with any of those personally. The ground fighting is over-rated in a real fight situation. It isn't effective enough compared to striking. The reason is because with striking you can end a fight in a second or two. Grappling requires multiple steps, and takes too much time to really get to a dominant place. Secondly, by the time you are in that place, his friends could come over and boot you in the head. You'll have no way of winning as you can't grapple more then 1 person at a time. And if your opponent has a weapon of any kind, he'll be using that instead, and since you're so close to him, he's never going to miss. Way too dangerous.

An effective defense system is Jeet Kune Do. The basis of the whole art is effectiveness, and that's exactally what you want when you're in a fight.

As far as I know, Jeet Kune Do doesn't involve a lot of full-contact sparring (at 80% or more effort). I've taken Muay Thai, BJJ, and Boxing for several years and learning techniques and doing light sparring means NOTHING without serious sparring. There are so many techniques that seem simple and easy at first and end up taking YEARS to apply to a live situation. Without the sparring, much of this stuff is almost worthless.

For example: Kano was only 24 when he started his own Jiu-Jitsu school that allowed live sparring. Do you know what happened when his students faced off against traditional Jiu-Jitsu schools that didn't allow sparring? Kano's students wiped the floor with them almost uniformly. It's not that Kano's school had tehcniques that were amazingly better, it's that they had sparred regularly against live opponents.

As for the effectiveness of BJJ, many standing submissions can be completed in a couple steps (for instance, there are various ways to deflect a punch and complete a standing arm lock). These aren't used in BJJ tournaments, but they are taught at most BJJ schools.

I'll admit that weapons are the wild card, because it's tough to counter them (both standing and on the ground). That's why I would reccommend doing something like Combat Sambo, which at least gives you some ideas about how to deal with weapons.

**tidalwave** · May 23rd, 2007, 04:17 PM

I agree with many of those choices simply because the X factor is more on the martial artist than on the martial art. Also, is this supposed to be the most effective martial art for building the most competent real-world fighter, or is it the most effective art for defending oneself in a short amount of time? Assuming it's the former, here's my off-the-cuff take.

Ground fighting:
Yes, being competent on the ground is important because fights do go to the ground.. although I'd like to see statistics about that 'most fight end up on the ground' fact.. sounds like marketing to me. Without re-stating what ManWhoCan said, I think the ground game is important to the extent that you can remain in control of the fight. I.E. you are the one who can land strikes and get up at will. For me, being able to generate striking and throwing power from the ground is more important than locks and chokes. I question the value in being a walking encyclopedia of submissions and holds since, in a real ground fight, I'd rather land a few strikes, jump up, and run.

Weapons:
I think this can be important because a lot of people carry knives or can improvise effective weapons (like breaking-off a car antenna in a parking lot). For these, I think the most practical would be from the Filipino arts like Kali and Escrima. They may not have a lot of disarms, but there are plenty of practical applications for these arts.

Fighting dirty:
Yeah, I agree that this is very important.. especially from a quick&simple defense standpoint. It may take a lot of practice to apply these effectively against someone who is resisting, but I think there's a good reason why military fighting system employ a lot of 'dirty' techniques. The part that I'd be careful about is when someone says that a certain application will cause a devastating result when it might just be a dubious claim... for example: "If you kick someone here, it will snap his neck and collapse his lungs." "Oh yeah? Have you done this?" "Well no, but my instructor's buddy is an Army Ranger and he..."

Live sparring:
This can be quite a hot topic and shouldn't be treated ham-isted (no pun intended). I agree that it's important to have a live, resisting opponent, but I think that the importance of this can be overstated.. if live sparring is the best thing, then why study a martial art? Just go brawl. =) Live sparring should teach a couple of things very well: general technique application, timing/distancing, and, last but not least, how to take a hit. One reason why I think it can be overrated is because sparring doesn't teach much about building power and how to move to remain stable.

The best fighters and martial artists that I know train their body to move effectively and generate power in a dynamic environment. Yes, they occasionally spar or work on 'techniques', but if you want to move beyond the quick and simple self defense or martial competitions, this is one of the better ways. This kind of points to what ManWhoCan was saying about JDK.. I honestly don't know much about JDK, but from what I see, it looks like more of a training philosophy than a stand-alone martial art.

For the systems listed it looks like it's hard to go wrong. Some might complement others well, while some might be pretty complete systems on their own. I think that as long as the person puts in the effort to train hard, train smart, and to continuously learn and try new things, the end result will invariably be a competent fighter.

OBE · May 23rd, 2007, 05:31 PM

I thinking the most effective is the one thats gets you hit the least often, and ends the conflict as quickly as possible.

**theatrain** · May 23rd, 2007, 09:48 PM

Some good points, but I don't think people take these forms of martial arts because they want to be prepared for a street fight. Most people who are serious about those martial arts listed do it for sport,exercise, hobby.. as well as self defense yes. but the best martial artists are the last people you see in a street fight.

If you'd like to be prepared to defend yourself in a street fight I think the too most important martial arts would be boxing and wrestling.. Plus a little bit of weight training so you have a upper hand in the strength department that will definitley help. If you look bigger and stronger than some bully who is looking for trouble chances are he won't start sh!t with you. They're usually looking for a smaller weaker victim to make themselves feel better.

never fight enless you need to.

**raijin1** · May 23rd, 2007, 11:28 PM

It will depend on the situation. If you are one on one with someone, a grappling/ground style will be your safest and most effective bet (as far as reducing potential injury you yourself). But if you are facing multiple attackers, you are going to have to be a bit riskier and throw some strikes - to hopefully take them out of the game quickly.

**TheManWhoCan** · May 23rd, 2007, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpingiron

As far as I know, Jeet Kune Do doesn't involve a lot of full-contact sparring (at 80% or more effort). I've taken Muay Thai, BJJ, and Boxing for several years and learning techniques and doing light sparring means NOTHING without serious sparring. There are so many techniques that seem simple and easy at first and end up taking YEARS to apply to a live situation. Without the sparring, much of this stuff is almost worthless.

As for the effectiveness of BJJ, many standing submissions can be completed in a couple steps (for instance, there are various ways to deflect a punch and complete a standing arm lock). These aren't used in BJJ tournaments, but they are taught at most BJJ schools.

I'll admit that weapons are the wild card, because it's tough to counter them (both standing and on the ground). That's why I would reccommend doing something like Combat Sambo, which at least gives you some ideas about how to deal with weapons.

Any JKD school that is worth their weight should have sparring, or at least the option to spar if you choose. Bruce said himself that learning how to fight without fighting, is like learning how to swim without water. As far as standing submissions, they are way too difficult to perform in my opinion. The techniques themselves are pretty basic, but applying them to a guy who is possibly A) much bigger then you, B) a talented boxer/MAist who's punches move too fast to grab or C) has a weapon or knows how to counter locks

As far as weapons go, it is definatly good to know how to stay calm and to have some idea on how to defend against a weapon. But if somebody whips out a knife, then you learn Parkour. Nothing else is as effective as that for not getting you hurt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tidalwave

Ground fighting:
Yes, being competent on the ground is important because fights do go to the ground.. although I'd like to see statistics about that 'most fight end up on the ground' fact.. sounds like marketing to me. Without re-stating what ManWhoCan said, I think the ground game is important to the extent that you can remain in control of the fight. I.E. you are the one who can land strikes and get up at will. For me, being able to generate striking and throwing power from the ground is more important than locks and chokes. I question the value in being a walking encyclopedia of submissions and holds since, in a real ground fight, I'd rather land a few strikes, jump up, and run.

That's way more along the lines of JKD then Jiu jutsu lol. To have the knowledge that if somebody jumps you and wrestles you to the ground, you're still comfortable. But taking it there based around the "fact" that "most fights end up on the ground" is ridiculous to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tidalwave

The best fighters and martial artists that I know train their body to move effectively and generate power in a dynamic environment. Yes, they occasionally spar or work on 'techniques', but if you want to move beyond the quick and simple self defense or martial competitions, this is one of the better ways. This kind of points to what ManWhoCan was saying about JDK.. I honestly don't know much about JDK, but from what I see, it looks like more of a training philosophy than a stand-alone martial art.

"In a dynamic environment" is really key. Training is poor lighting, different levels of ground, sun in your eyes etc. are so important to training but go completely unnoticed. JKD is not more like a philosophy. It's based around pure, effective techniques that have roots in historical, and temporary application. The philosophy of JKD is enormous to say the least. But the techniques are real, and there are many of them.

That sounds like I'm trying to be a dick, reading that over. I really mean no offense to you at all.

There are a couple of different JKD styles, or systems out there. Dan Inosanto, and Ted Wong both study and teach JKD, but they have different interpretations of what Bruce had taught.

Vid 1 - Dan Inosanto demonstrating different techniques of JKD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3WsXSMc2f0

Vid 2 - Tommy Carruthers demonstrating the explosiveness and effective speed that JKD can yield.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdnH3Mu-oXY

Vid 3 - Paul Vunak a student of Dan Inostanto I believe, demonstrating the close up fighting that JKD can train you for.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMfsnDQCYRs

Enjoy!

pumpingiron · May 24th, 2007, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theatrain

If you'd like to be prepared to defend yourself in a street fight I think the too most important martial arts would be boxing and wrestling.. Plus a little bit of weight training so you have a upper hand in the strength department that will definitley help. If you look bigger and stronger than some bully who is looking for trouble chances are he won't start sh!t with you. They're usually looking for a smaller weaker victim to make themselves feel better.

never fight enless you need to.

One thing to keep in mind with boxing is that it's easy to break your hand with a strong punch if you're not wearing gloves (indeed, this happened to a lot of fighters in MMA before they adopted gloves). Muay Thai teaches you how to use elbows and knees, which are much safer in a street situation.

**TheManWhoCan** · May 24th, 2007, 11:21 PM

Did anyone see the latest TUF episode when those two guys fought? When the blond guy got dropped on his head on the pavement, is exactally the kind of scenario that you want to avoid. He had an arm bar in deep, and the guy just picked him up and dropped him. That is why grappling in my eyes takes a back seat in training for effective street fighting.

Imagine if the guy he was fighting had no reason to back off. He could've been paralyzed or died.

I'm not posting this as a "I told you so" type response. Rather something to think about when you're training. Question the effectiveness of grappling from an unbiased standpoint.

iancobb00 · June 5th, 2007, 07:46 PM

Anyone who believes that BJJ has any value in the street fighting world would be incorrect. The second worst place to be in a street fight is on the ground. The first is on the ground thinking you've got control. You don't. When a guy has a knife in his back pocket, you don't want to be hugging him on the ground or working to butterfly or what have you. Armbars and triangles don't do anything when your opponents three friends are kicking the side of your head in.
In all fairness to all martial arts, "...No way is the way". No art is necessarily better than another. It comes down to the economy of motion. One must stack the odd's in his/her favor by attempting to end the altercation as quickly as possible. This cannot be trained. This cannot be taught. This can only be realized by individuals who have removed the ego from the arts. Black belt means nothing when two individuals are fighting for their lives--and whatever anybody thinks, no matter how low key the fight is, one is still at risk.
For beginners and masters alike:

Standing fight:
Step 1: Get the hell out... If this cannot be done, move to Step 2.
Step 2: Breathe. Stay calm. Control your heart rate, et c. Everything on this level that instructors tell fighters applies in a street fight as well.
Step 3: Aim to hurt--some would say kill, but I personally don't advocate this in self-defense. (When other people are involved, it all gets complicated.) Defang the snake, or in other words, take away the most dangerous/useful tools your opponent has. Take the eyes in order to blind. Kick the groin in order to overload the nerves that line the pelvic bone--this works on both men and women, by the way. Defang the snake... I think y'all get the point.
Step 4: Go back to Step 1? Never a bad option. Otherwise, having created an entryway, one can take it. Enter, control, and end the fight. In other words, quick step in--any angle you make is okay--and find a leverage point: hair, throat, ears, eyes, fingers, wrists and arms, groin, small intestine, et c. Again, you get the point.
Step 5: Get the hell out.
If you end up going to the ground, think of the ladder method. Get control in a similar fashion by trapping hands, grabbing guard, or even an arm triangle. Then, use a little kino mutai: tear chunks of flesh away with teeth, claw, eye gouge... then make a ladder-climb motion with kicks and strikes. BJJ stand up--for those who don't practice, this would be a kick to the knee/groin/whatever you hit that recoils behind one's weight base in such a way to allow one to stand back up.
If your street fighting looks pretty, you're doing it all wrong.
Thanks for your time.

**Adonis** · June 5th, 2007, 08:47 PM

The Ancient Chinese Art of Whooping Ass

DeKs · June 24th, 2007, 09:05 PM

2 Words - Krav Maga - Contact Combat.... IMI Fighting System... many names but Krav Maga is exceptional for street fighting.

I'm kind of partial to it.... but basically the whole point of KM is to get the fight over as quick as possible using the most brutal tactics. We train for multiple assailiants (spelling sucks), weapon defenses, as well as third party protection.... and if you lucky enough to get the military training you get taught sentry removal and other very harsh tactics.....

Mr. D. · July 23rd, 2007, 05:49 PM

On the street, whatever that may mean to you, the problem is not simply that there are no rules. We have to remember that there are no fights either. There is only ambush and attempted murder. How are you going to beat two or three guys with knives, chains or guns with something as gentle as a technique learned in a dojo? If you pay attention to your surroundings the chances are that they will skip you and attack someone who is not paying attention. If they do attack they will strike from more than one side and do so at the same time. If they only want to rob you and you can't get away give them everything. There is no point in being a dead hero. (Don't forget, they will already have the drop on you.)
If you are really going to fight in this situation then you had better be good or yyou had better be armed. You have to kill or permanently cripple the leader with one strike. That will give you a chance to run away.
Matial arts training will help you stay awake and aware at all times. Stay in crowds. Plan your exit in every situation. Be smart. For example, if you are jumped on the sidewalk who among you would think of stepping into traffic. If you stay close to the traffic side of the parked cars you will be reasonable safe while your attackers will have to step out into oncoming traffic to get an advantage on you. These are the kind of things that will save your life.
No one wants to fight you on the street. They either want to rob you or kill you. Period.
Avoid bar fights at all cost. If you have to fight do so inside. There are more weapons available. If someone wants to take it outside it's because they ahve their rother or cousin or somebody waiting there to stab or shoot you so that thay can steal your car. There is no more honor in this world so don't be a macho idiot.
Always appear to be incapable of fighting and act like a coward. Then you can always get in the first punch or kick. Always fight "dirty". The fight is over quicker and you will get hurt less.
Don't think that you can disarm someone. You will definitely get cut or shot.
Remember: there will be more than one of them and they will come at you from all sides. They will strike when you least expect it. If you fight back, you have to at least cripple them or they will kill you.
It is best to avoid this kind of situation at all costs.

mushfoot · January 10th, 2008, 08:54 PM

hi there,

you should try the Israelli Krav Maga (which I am currently doing) as it has the brute force and techniques designed for real-life situations, as opposed to in-the-rings. Check it out on Youtube for some videos.

The idea behind Krav Maga is to take the attacker down as quick as possible with multiple techniques. Very basic techniques that complement the body's natural kinetic movements.

In terms of training, it is one of the most hard core of them all as we wear full protective gear and work on full contact. Yes, there are injuries that occur because of this (I just got my right hamstring stuffed because of working on a takedown).

After doing various martial arts, I stopped because they were too....much like sports and not enough live training. A mate of mine has done Krav Maga for 4 years and introduced me to it several months ago. After trying it out, I got hooked by the brutal mental and physical conditioning it trains.

Krav Maga was designed by the Israelli military some years back, which they train their soldiers. It is a form that is designed to be simple so not something that will take years to be effective. Yes, it does take some techniques from other disciplines, but it applies body mechanics and brutal effectiveness to make it deadly.

try it out!

**cujo-1** · January 13th, 2008, 08:19 PM

as with any martial art, it wont do you any good if you cant utilize your brain!

**sleepyles** · January 19th, 2008, 09:10 PM

I agree with cujo-1.

The best "self defense" on the street, is to win your battle without fighting. If you have studied any form of martial arts, it is to teach the person techniques to defend themselves only if they are in harm. But the best form is to no use any form of martial arts at all as self defense, only as a last resort.

"Brain first, Braun last!" - That is what my Master preaches. . . .

If you want my opinion, they best form of martial arts would be Judo for self defense. When a person attacks you, you can grab them and throw them to the ground, and then run and leave in self defense. It also teaches basic chokes, submission techniques. I have never trained in Judo, I have personally trained in BJJ (brown belt) and Muay Thai (Kru), and some Karate when I was younger.

brohamulus · February 20th, 2008, 10:52 PM

I've done martial arts for 25 years, half that time spent in traditional martial arts, then experimenting with, and discovering the practical superiority of mixed martial arts. In my opinion, everything pumping iron has said was 100% correct.

I'd also like to add that I've been in street fights with more than one person at a time, and there are so many factors that you cannot train for which render ruling one type of MA superior in that situation, a pointless argument. I used boxing to defend myself - I was literally in a corner, no one could get behind me. A friend of mine held a guy in a rear naked and shielded his body with the guy, as the guys friends tried to kick him. Both situations worked. I have other friends who were well-trained get annihilated by three people at once.

So, if you're going for straight up hand to hand combat, no weapons - pumping iron is correct. Ive witnessed brazilian jj dominate people, first hand, in street fights. If you think fighting off your back is a bad idea, then you probably don't know how to fight off your back, and therefore you are correct. That doesn't mean proficient bjjer's, judokas and sambo players cannot fight off their backs.

My 2...or...5 cents.

getterdone71 · February 21st, 2008, 08:41 AM

I like the fact that so many of the "veteran members" here are saying the best thing to do in a bad situation is to get the hell out of it, without fighting if possible. Too many hot heads out there. Not like in the old days. Today you'll get killed before you can throw a punch. I haven't seen a single fighting tech. that can stop a bullet. Sometimes you have to know when to walk away and when to run away.