Bruce Lee

**TheManWhoCan** · June 21st, 2007, 12:12 AM

What are your thoughts on this influencial martial artist? Is he deserving of his title as one of, if not, the greatest martial artist ever, or does he get this title because of an unfortunate, early demise? Do you think he used steroids to achieve his body instead of dedication and understanding of nutrition and hard work? Does he deserve the credit as a father of MMA? What do you think of Jeet Kune Do?

I'm just curious to know your thoughts on Bruce. But if a debate starts on all this, please keep it clean and void of half-truths, lies and hearsay.

Cheers

**ItalianStallion** · June 21st, 2007, 02:04 AM

i think he must be considered as one of the most influential people in martial arts history..even if he might not be the 'best" he did influence a lot of people in either joinin or watchin martial arts...id rank him up there in prob top 5....just behin chuck norris lol jk

**tidalwave** · June 21st, 2007, 04:16 PM

Cool thread!

As far as popular historical figures, Bruce has to be foremost in the martial arts from a western perspective. What amazes me that he was, and still is in many undying ways, the face and thought of MA.

He certainly wasn't the first to espouse the 'adopt what works, drop what doesn't' M.O. Although, he probably communicated it better than any other preceding him. As far as ingenuity, blending of philosophies, and communication of ideas, Bruce was certainly one of the greatest. His martial ability was undoubtedly amazing as well, even though his physical legacy has been clouded by the half-truths and hearsay mentioned above. So I think it's safe to say that he was one of the best by that standard as well. However, that can be debated to no end. I have an old Black Belt magazine from (I think) 1986.. there's an article about Chuck Norris. The author basically states that Chuck is a better martial artist based upon intensity of his training and proving himself in the ring.. or something to that effect. I was surprised when I read this and it might have some value in this thread, so if you like, I can scan or transcribe the article.

I don't think you'll find anyone who can deny Bruce's physique development was top notch. In keeping with his philosophy, he was not big/bulky, but his conditioning, especially for that period in time, was phenomenal. I wouldn't be terribly shocked if he had experimented with gear, and I don't think that should detract from his achievement. He undoubtedly had a firm understanding of nutrition and hard work.. or insane genetics. Plenty of people had steroids back in the day, and but how many of them had Bruce's conditioning?

Ironically, I think that some of his longevity is due to his untimely death. We'll never know where he would have taken the martial arts world if he were still alive. The influence of his training philosophies are certainly a large force in the modern martial artist. I'm willing to bet that his MA books currently outsell his movies.. and that should say a lot.

jjmas · June 22nd, 2007, 11:28 AM

Bruce Lee is probably the most popular Martial Artist of all time, but Joe Lewis(who was actually a student of Lee's) was voted by martial artist as the greatest.

**TheManWhoCan** · June 22nd, 2007, 11:52 AM

tidalwave:

That'd be great if you could scan that article in. Great post to.

**tidalwave** · June 22nd, 2007, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheManWhoCan

tidalwave:

That'd be great if you could scan that article in. Great post to.

I'll try to do that sometime in the next day or two. I don't have access to a scanner at the moment so I might have to just type then ghetto-scan (photograph hehe) the relevant pages.

waterdragon · June 23rd, 2007, 10:33 PM

I it difficult to say that bruce was that best marital artist of all time. there are loads of skilled people around that aren't famous, Wang shu jin for example was still defeating the best fighters from main land china when he was in his 80's but you would have to be a marital artist to regocnise his name.

as for blending concepts this is quite a common practice in Chinese martial arts, wheny ou travel around master you will find very few people who have only trained one art and they take what the need from all of the arts and blend them, this is why even if you studied the ame art with two different teachers they would ahve very different approaches and techniques. this is also why the standardised forms were created to make sporting events easier to judge.

Bruce Lee was incredible, a great martial artist and one who really understood what marital arts were, he wasn't the only one but he was the most famous one.

**raijin1** · June 24th, 2007, 01:26 AM

Bruce Lee's legacy is that he brought martial arts into the mainstream. Sure, there are people now who might be 'better fighters' or what not... But Bruce paved the way for the MMA tournaments of today as well as all of these 'Westernized' martial arts films... He encompassed two worlds...

25 years after his death, he remains one of my role models...

**tidalwave** · June 26th, 2007, 10:02 AM

Ok, I finally got around to ghetto-scanning (taking a photo of) the article in Black Belt from March 1986. The article is about Chuck Norris. One of the interviewees doesn't seem to think too highly of Bruce. I was surprised when I read it. Keep in mind that this is one guy's opinion and who knows what his motivations were.

The magazine is pretty funny overall, especially from that time period. This was during the height of the NINJA craze - although it was before ninja turtles and ninja rap.

The pictures should be large enough for you all to read the text. FYI, click on the picture when it loads on imagevenue and it should display at full size. If they didn't come out well or if you want more from that magazine, let me know.

Enjoy!

**TheManWhoCan** · June 26th, 2007, 12:15 PM

That's an interesting take on things. That Perry guy is pretty opinionated on Bruce for only meeting him twice.

"His lats were like wings" lol. That's crazy. Good stuff here tidawave. Thanks for that.

**tidalwave** · June 28th, 2007, 09:48 AM

Yeah, it certainly isn't a balanced view of Bruce. I'm pretty sure there are plenty more accounts where people actually sparred with him and can attest to his speed AND power. It's hard for me to believe that someone with his knowledge of body mechanics (not to mention physique) couldn't generate much power.

This Perry fellow is also working under the false assumption that 'kicking air' is useless for generating power. I train with peeps who have not hit a heavy bag in a decade, yet they could literally blow me away behind an air shield, despite weighing 50 lbs less.

Back to Bruce.. I've always been curious about his thoughts on internal martial arts. It seems evident that he did not espouse any value in the concept of 'chi' as it was taught in many Chinese systems, but it seems to be implied in his body mechanics. His famous one-inch-punch, although rudimentary and not entirely 'internal', was a pretty overt demonstration of his understanding. I have a pdf detailing some of his external training practices, but I'm wondering what his internal philosophy and training practices consisted of.

**TheManWhoCan** · June 28th, 2007, 01:02 PM

I'd be interested to know that to. It is sort of strange that chi isn't exactally mentioned in the Tao, especially since like you said, is a huge part of Chinese martial arts. The Chi is supposed to not only allow you to hit somebody like they aren't even there or move somebody in the same manner, but also allows for perfect health and welfare. Aikido, a Japanese art, which Jeet Kune Do has adopted moves from, focuses heavily on chi, but I haven't seen mention of it.

There is a book called "The art of expressing the human body" by Bruce which I believe outlines his training, the types of training etc. he did. Maybe that would mention something on mental cultivation other then Zen, which is briefly mentioned in the Tao of JKD.

**tidalwave** · July 3rd, 2007, 01:10 PM

I'll check out that book. Thanks.

Not to discount the body of Chinese medicine, but I treat the concept of chi as a 'mystical energy' with a handful of skepticism when it is used in the context of physical/martial power. This is because I've personally felt people who have a high degree of bodyskill training such that one would think that there must be some mystical energy attributed to this person's abilities. Rather, the explanation was quite grounded in physiology, albeit in subtleties that make it still sound esoteric.

It's this kind of bodyskill that I'm interested in researching about Bruce. He certainly possessed unheard-of conditioning, but his reputed power likely had some skill that went beyond simple technique. I don't know if these pictures are accurate, but I recall seeing a series of photos where Bruce executes a side thrust kick against a heavy bag. The bag proceeds to swing upward, almost touching the ceiling from which it is suspended. Granted, I don't know how heavy this bag was, but if there isn't a deliberate deception involved, then Mr. Lee knows a think or two about generating power. IMHO, that power is more than amazing conditioning and clean technique.. I think there's some skill involved at a more basic/foundation level, which some might attribute to chi, but is actually at the root of most martial arts, especially internal ones.

I know this is going off a bit on a tangent, and I don't mean to jack the thread, so if I need to clarify what I'm asking, please PM me. However, I think determining whether or not someone has this deep understanding of movement is a clear indication of martial mastery. Also, don't construe this to mean that I have this understanding, because I certainly do not.. I am just aware of it. =)

**TheManWhoCan** · July 6th, 2007, 12:05 AM

I think this is possibly the vid you're talking about....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEeRslC4PnY

Wicked side kicks. About the chi thing...

The kind of chi that I'm looking to study and understand is the kind of chi that is displayed by Buddhists. To have the ability to totally control your body with your mind, so that even involuntary functions like heart beat, metabolic rate, body temperature, blocking of pain receptors etc. can be controlled. I think there is a certain mysticism to extreme physical abilities that chi gets caught up in, for better or worse, but I think that chi is an energy that can be vital to health and well being. I don't think it's fully understood, or it could even be dubbed as your electromagnetic field that people generate, so I'm interested to know what your mind can do to control it and what that may yield when combined with physical prowess.