Input Please?

[bouncer]

I usually hang out in the bodybuilding side here, but I am contemplating beginning martial arts training for myself and my sons (9 and 15.)

Besides the physical aspect of it all, I'm looking for a discipline that encompasses sound phylosophy that leads to personal growth and maturity.

I know there are many disciplines, but does anyone have any suggestions?

Many thanks in advance.

[ItalianStallion]

i think that ne type of mma has its code of conducts...its not rly like one fighting type is just pure fighting n if u learn it u will just fight
it all depends on wat type of fighting ur interested in...boxing is good for stand up boxing n defense....jui jitsu is for ground fighting very good form of fighting because u can submit sum1 n stuff....id recommend a gym that offers various classes...a buddy of mine goes to LA Boxing, in whcih they have a ring but offer boxing/mma style fighting/n soon jui jitsu...its like 80 bucks a month but u can go to ne class as many times as u want n its offered like all round...sounds betta than learinn one style...

[TheManWhoCan]

I think it's going to be hard to find an art (or teacher) that does both nowadays. Most people want to focus on the ass kicking side of martial arts so MMA I wouldn't recommed for personal growth. Shaolin Kung Fu will get you in great shape and has a lot of philosphy, but personally I think not that great for self-defense.

Jeet Kune Do I would say would be something to look into. It encompasses practical fighting methods for defense, and encourages people to modify it and study it for their personal use. It also has strong philosophical influences from books such as The Art of War, The Tao Teh Ching, and The Book of 5 rings. I think a good teacher in any art should be able to get you into shape and teach some philosophy, but I also think that for the most part, philosophy and maturation in it is going to be a personal study. Unless you're wanting to join a Buddhist temple, or Shaolin Temple to learn that.

Hope that helps some.

[pliny_2001]

I'll agree with most MMA training just being crap - every time I see them at agym, it's a bunch of guys who, 10 years ago, would just be crappy guitarists. Now they're just trying to be crappy fighters. Obviously not all, but close to it. FWIW.

I did TDK for a few years, but got bored with learning unending forms and insufficient sparring time. In undergrad, I did some hapkido before switching over to brazilian jui-jitsu (which I loved - this would have been around 2000, before the crush of MMA wanna-bees lowered the teaching standards to their present level). I ended up falling in love with boxing, which is such a strategic sport that it boggles the mind. Don't know if the philosophy will help everyone's mind (Tyson may have ended up crazy regardless of what his career was, but he's a classic example of boxers gone wrong), but the sport has the potential to be really, really dangerous - even with headgear. Of course, all of the others have bad day potential, as well - I don't want to count how many times someone got kicked in the head in the beginning TKD levels when their parter tried "just one more rep."

I don't have kids, but I'd probably lean towards taking one to tae kwon do. The overall quality of teaching is probably going to be higher than you could find in most other disciplines, there's a significant mental aspect, and it's good exercise. A base in TKD would allow you/the kids to determine what their future training path should be.

[Mr. Stone]

I disagree. I think any sport, if given the person is willing to give everything he has to it, involves some personal growth. It's the journey of finding your own limits and pushing through them, of getting back up when you lose, that develop your character as an athlete and a person.

In terms of Martial Arts, MMA has it's place. If trained as it should be, praticing basic technique less worry about the "ass kicking" part, you'll be a more well rounded fighter both stand-up and on the ground. And frankly, if you really want to compete, you need it.

In terms of philosophy, MMA has nothing for you.

[pumpingiron]

Originally Posted by bouncer

I usually hang out in the bodybuilding side here, but I am contemplating beginning martial arts training for myself and my sons (9 and 15.)

Besides the physical aspect of it all, I'm looking for a discipline that encompasses sound phylosophy that leads to personal growth and maturity.

I know there are many disciplines, but does anyone have any suggestions?

Many thanks in advance.

I think Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is the perfect martial art for self-development and maturity. BJJ is extremely technical, which means you learn to pay attention to every detail in order to learn a technique. You spar every time you practice BJJ, which is a safe way to demonstrate humility (everyone has to tap out, especially when they're first learning) and overcoming adversity. Learning about working from underneath an opponent is excellent for learning to deal with stress, you learn when you're sparring to relax in these uncomfortable positions in order to find a way out. I could go on and on, but these and other things are so great in terms of character development.

[tidalwave]

I'd advise to check out the arts listed above and then some. I think that the instructor and training environment is more important than the art itself. That said, in MA, like most things, you get out of it what you put in to it.

Most commercial dojos, be they karate, bjj, boxing, etc. have a free trial period where you can take a couple of classes for free. I think this would be a good route for you and your sons to make an informed decision. One thing though.. don't be pressured into signing-up before/after one of these free sessions. A lot of times they'll ask for your contact information and make you sign an insurance waiver, but make sure that the free lessons are no-strings attached. In short, don't be pressured by a guy in pajamas trying to take your money. =P

The best martial arts instruction I've found, in terms of balance between 'ass kicking' and personal development, has come from rather inexpensive sources. People who do it because it's their passion tend to provide better instruction than people who do it as a job. I won't go into a cynical diatribe on dojo economics, but you get the drift. As far as where to find these less-commercial teachers, many teach in a 'club' atmosphere.. from local college clubs to the Boys & Girls Club.

Basically, I'd jump into whichever gym/dojo you feel best suits what you're looking for. Just steer clear of ones that are too kiddie/playhouse, too expensive, focused on rank (black belts club? please), have a gift shop, overly sport-oriented, teach too many arts, or are just too commercial (huge classes with people in lines doing counted punches comes to mind).

As for arts (and styles) to check out:
- Karate (Isshinryu, Kyokushin, Enshin)
- Tai Chi (Chen style)
- Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
- Boxing
- Muy Thai
- Judo
- Jeet Kune Do

There should be plenty of options in the Tacoma area. If you find some schools that have websites and you want face-value opinions of them, post 'em up!

[torofuerte]

[RANT MODE]
Anyone who recommends a martial arts for personal growth while grossly deriding another one has a screw lose. Martial Arts are about combat first and foremost.

Having said that, a MMA gym will train you within a code of conduct. Courtesy, respect and sportmanship are expected. I train in one, and my peers are some of the most educated, polite people I've met. The conducts in these schools are nothing short of professional and have nothing to do with their emphasis in kicking ass.

Lots of people come to MMA gyms, specially those who like to brag how bad asses they are - they usually don't last long (don't have the mental thoughness to hang in there) or they get expelled for not showing the attributes already listed.

Any single person who derides a MMA gym as being crappy for X or Y reason has never been to one, has a grudge against it, or had a bad experience with one particular individual or gym (and never grew out of it.) And if anyone feels so strongly about MMA fighters being crappy fighters, then just come to http://www.bullshido.net and arrange a meet-up with one of the crappy fighters in your local area.

[/RANT MODE]


Anyways, to answer bouncer's question:

First, I'd like to commend you for looking for an activity that you can share with your kids. Not many parents do that. Just note that what can be satisfying for your kids may not be good for you (and viceversa.)

And I think it's missguided (in a good way) to look for philosophy and discipline in martial arts schools. There are a lot of bogus martial arts masters, who put in a gi or kimono, hang some kanji characters on the wall and tell parents they are teaching their kids spirituality and culture just because they teach them how to count in Japanese. That's bogus spirituality.

A better way is to engage kids in acts of charity. That's a better way to help in their spiritual growth.

My Personal Recommendations:

Tae Kwon Do:

Even though I'm a MMA/BJJ/Judo fan, I'd recommend Tae-Kwon Do (TKD for short) as a very good alternative - I have two of my nephews in an ATA school, and my family is happy with the discipline and physical conditioning. By discipline I mean structured physical education program. It is also an olympic sports.

When it comes to practical fighting skills, it leaves a lot to be desired. TKD schools are a hit and miss when it come to teaching fighting skills. Some are great, some are just impractical shows of acrobatics. We chose ATA out of convenience, but it's likely that we'll switch our kids to a more combative art in the future.

Judo:

Another (more affordable) alternative is Judo - it is one of the most physically demanding olympic sports and martial arts, bar none. The grueling training. rituals, belt systems and other characteristics of Judo were devised (and maintained today) to build character and discipline. Giving the strong grip, forearm, core and hip conditioning that's required in Judo (as well as SAMBO and BJJ), it leads excellently for developing punching power if a Judoka wished to cross-train with boxing or some form of kickboxing (.ie. Muay Thai or San Da).

Judo is simply another form of jacket wrestling that blends well with boxing/kickboxing with an enphasis on throws, and most importantly, how to break falls so that you do not get injured.This is a short instructional of what Judo basic throws usually looks like :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFM-xRKbSec

If you are interested in the philosophical and cultural aspects of it, see this short documentary on Masahiko Kimura (and his training) - LISTEN TO THE CLIP AT MARK 2:20!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkDBflFtPIw

And this is a promotional Judo clip from the Zembu Club in Sidney (you can see the physical training about 2/3 of the clip):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPLCHw9QeAA

MMA/BJJ with a Kids Program:

One more alternative is a MMA school with a kids program. If there are none, then a BJJ school (they usually have kids program.)

You should check a MMA or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu school with a kids program - these programs teach discipline, moral values, respect and physical conditioning through competitition and sportmanship. These are some clips that I filmed at the NAGA South Florida 2006 (both for adults and unisex kids matches

http://www.youtube.com/groups_videos?name=NAGAMiami2006

And this is another clip of a ladies bout at the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Atlantic Cup hosted by Renato Tavarez in South Florida:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erxRhwUraXM

MD/HS Wrestling:

This is yet, another alternative. It's afordable - usually free. It is competitive, which requires physical training and discipline (discipline meaning a structured training curriculum.) As a parent you would not be able to participate, but it certainly helps kids keeping themselves busy after school ours.

One more thing: Look around, and always keep your eyes open when you sign contracts with martial arts schools. Good luck.

[TheManWhoCan]

^ I disagree with a lot of what you posted there. I'll only touch on 2 things that I'd like your perspective on.

"Martial Arts are about combat first and foremost."

Why? Martial arts is 2 words, and I think people forget this. It's a way to harmonize your physical and mental self, so that you are prepared completely for confrontation, should it arise. It isn't about learning how to punch, kick or throw. And I think this is one of the reasons that some people look down at MMA, because of the thug like, I can kick your ass attitude that a lot of fighters bring to the table. You can watch any episode of The Ultimate Fighter to see that. The fighting is nothing without a strong mental and philosophical understanding.

Secondly, I love Judo. It's so much fun and is crazy good for conditioning. When you suggest cross-training (or when you train), how do you keep the economy and effectiveness of each art you train in? While Judo is great, it is drastically different then boxing in every way. Stance, guard, motion transfer, techniques, leverage, etc. What do you do to ensure that the technique you incorporate don't lose their inherent effectiveness?

I think this is a huge reason why MMA could remain a sport, and not grow into a "sweet science". Combining and blending martial arts is harder, and much different then just cross-training.

Thoughts?

[torofuerte]

I've adapted my Judo to use a left-forward stance (even though I'm right handed), which conveniently serves as an orthodox boxing stance, and I can switch to a right one no problems. In fact, having a left-forward stance is great since most Judoka favor a right-forward stance. Also, any judoka should be able to apply his favorite throws left and right, making this a non-issue when selecting an orthodox or southpaw stance. I don't see the problem with that, and I know several shodans who are proficient boxers and who blend them both pretty well. Same with BJJ players.

When you blend, you have to adapt the games you are using as the games themselves are fine-tuned to a distinct ruleset (no striking or leg locks in Judo - no kicks, no takedowns, zero clinch in boxing). When you cross-train, you train your Judo as in Judo, and you train your boxing as in boxing. I would say you have to adapt more the boxing stance when dealing with low kicks or takedowns than having to adapt judo stance or footwork.

Cross-training =/= blending.
Cross-training =/= MMA
blending =/= MMA

And as for martial arts, the idea there is a philosophical and spiritual aspect to it is quite a recent development. The fact that you don't find that in Muay Thai, Silat, Escrima/Kali or the pre-gendai Japanese Koryu is testament of that. These are combat arts. Philosophical values started with the Gendai Budo after the Meiji restoration, and only as a way to bring combat arts into the sports arena or to use combat arts as vehicles of physical instruction (as Kano intended.) These are two distinct entities, and neither is integral or fundamental to the other.

Also, martial arts, the term itself was first used in the 1600's in a fencing manual (ars martialis). Prior to that, in the East as in the West, martial arts manuals were always referred as books or instructionals of combat.

I still stand by wrestling as a good way to keep kids busy. I don't need to take my kids to a place to learn discipline and spirituality. They get that from home. I take them to a dojo to keep them busy, to make them sweat and get them in excellent physical shape, and a remote last, reinforce what they get at home (discipline through structure.)

Wrestling is a great way to go. Judo is a great way to go. Competitive TKD is a good way to go. Heck, ballet and gymnastics are a good way to goo as well. Again, because if your kids don't get discipline or spirituality at home, they are not going to get it outside of it.

You get better discipline and spirituality from doing charity work than by paying a sensei so that you can bow to them, do kata and count in Japanese.

Lastly, to use the TUF as an example of MMA mentality is silly. It is a reality show, targeted for *gasp* the very same retards that watch Spike TV. Half of the contestants were professionals with a track record - the other half were a bunch of meathead retards selected for drama value (over other much more talented applicants.) To take a reality TV show as a good source of information is no different that watching "Rambo III" to learn about the history of Afghanistan.

Again, if you want to look down on MMA, be my guest. But if you are honest, at least step into one of the schools, train there for a while and meet the people and the coaches. And by meeting, I don't mean watching them train from outside the window. Train with them, talk with them.

Until then, anyone who looks down in it (and the people who train it) is just pulling an unbiased opinion out of his ass... a very spiritual, mentally harmonizing thing to do. That's my last word on the subject.

Anyone interested in carrying out this converstation, and in particular, discuss with actual fighters of Judo, Boxing, MMA, Kickboxing, San Da, Muay Thai, Sambo, BJJ, Aikido, Kung Fu and others as well as coaches and instructors from around the planet, go here: http://www.bullshido.net

[TheManWhoCan]

When you cross-train, you train your Judo as in Judo, and you train your boxing as in boxing. I would say you have to adapt more the boxing stance when dealing with low kicks or takedowns than having to adapt judo stance or footwork.

But just training 1 or the other, leads to crappy Judo and crappy Boxing. If you're not intentionally trying to blend them together to keep all the positives, then you're ruining both arts in my opinion. You become a jack of all trades, master of none.

And as for martial arts, the idea there is a philosophical and spiritual aspect to it is quite a recent development.

Nonetheless, it's still there now, and to say that getting it at home is the same as getting it from a teacher is ridiculous. Counting in Japanese and bowing is not spirituality. If you've never spent the time to understand philosophy or spirituality, then you can't teach that to your kids. Giving them morals and values also is not the same thing. So this again, is why I think MMA is lacking in some areas. Training to have a strong mind allows you to increase your gains in training, as oppose to just physical or just mental. Also, Shaolin monks, warrior priests, are prime example of this. O Sensai, the founder of Aikido developed the system as a way to harmonize both mind and body. The Samurai followed their own code of conduct and religion. Musashi was a Buddhist. So it's not as recent as you may think it is.

The TUF example is not silly. Look at the demographic that MMA reaches. You can even look at some fighters to see this. The Diaz brothers, Karo Pariysan and Manny Gamburian, Tito Ortiz, Frank Mir, Ken Shamrock etc. They have all displayed this attitude that "I'm gonna kick your ass if your in my way, so stay the f*ck out of my way" The rare fighters like Liddell and Franklin are soft spoken, kind hearted individuals who carry MMA on their back.

I don't look down on MMA. I have tremendous respect for the guys who fight for a living, and I love watching it. But the original question "I'm looking for a discipline that encompasses sound phylosophy that leads to personal growth and maturity." does not include MMA. MMA has no philosophical background.

But if you are honest, at least step into one of the schools, train there for a while and meet the people and the coaches. And by meeting, I don't mean watching them train from outside the window. Train with them, talk with them.

I have. There's a gym 10mins away from me that teaches MMA (Judo, Karate, boxing, kickboxing, wrestling and Jiu Jutsu). I've met the instructors, both of them, and are very nice guys, and we share a lot of the same understanding and teachings of MMA. Between the two of them, they have some 40years of experience. One of them actually, knows Aikido, but intentionally leaves it out, the most spiritual art of all that is taught there.

You're attitude seems very standoff-ish when it comes to spirtuality in marital arts. You're so quick to say that if you dislike MMA you've got a biased, unworthy opinion on it, but that spirituality is not a cornerstone of marital arts and it's worthless to get somebody to teach you that, because you can apparently teach it. This is the attitude I'm talking about. Alot of people that train in MMA that I've talked to, have this attitude that they are the best fighters and martial artists in the world, and if you don't believe me, come down to my gym and roll with our guys to find out. They are all great people mind you, in great physical shape, intelligent people. But that code of conduct that, and that philosophy, you get in a dojo is missing in MMA.

Again, I don't look down on MMA as useless or a joke, whatever. Quite the opposite. If it gets people moving, great. Staying in shape is what this whole site is about, and I'll do anything I can to help people get into shape.

[torofuerte]

I have. There's a gym 10mins away from me that teaches MMA (Judo, Karate, boxing, kickboxing, wrestling and Jiu Jutsu). Hmmm, no. That's not MMA. That's a multi-disciplinary MA school. MMA or Vale-Tudo is a discipline of its own, distinct from having multiple separate classes.

But just training 1 or the other, leads to crappy Judo and crappy Boxing. If you're not intentionally trying to blend them together to keep all the positives, then you're ruining both arts in my opinion. You become a jack of all trades, master of none.I don't know man. I personally know Shodans and Nidans with years of experience in boxing or kickboxing. I'm not sure how a shodan or nidan would qualify as having crappy judo.



Again, I don't look down on MMA as useless or a joke, whatever. Quite the opposite. If it gets people moving, great. Staying in shape is what this whole site is about, and I'll do anything I can to help people get into shape.

Perhaps you don't, but still, an ignorant generalization was made about MMA fighters based on a reality show (see your own words below). Respect is obtained by respecting others. Spirituality means nothing without that. Spirituality without that is just self-contemplation.

And I think this is one of the reasons that some people look down at MMA, because of the thug like, I can kick your ass attitude that a lot of fighters bring to the table. You can watch any episode of The Ultimate Fighter to see that. The fighting is nothing without a strong mental and philosophical understanding.

In any case, this discussion doesn't server the OP's original question. I supplied some links to what's done for children in MMA/BJJ schools with kids program as well as suggesting wrestling and Judo, which are olympic sports, quite affordable, and sometimes even free. Competitive TKD is another (sometimes more costly alternative) and you have to keep your eyes open if one ever decides to learn practical fighting skills.

All of the suggestions above teach good values via sportmanship, respect, competition, physical conditioning, practical skills, and discipline.

Anyone else who want to make similar or better suggestions, go for it. And as for spiritualy, the most useful type of spirituality to have kids engage is charity/volunteer work. To instill spirituality, that's the way to go.

[TheManWhoCan]

Hmmm, no. That's not MMA. That's a multi-disciplinary MA school. MMA or Vale-Tudo is a discipline of its own, distinct from having multiple separate classes.


What I was attempting to show was the subclasses that these trainers inevitabley teach as MMA. They don't teach them individually, but as a whole. And some of those fighters have the opportnity to go and train with GSP. So they definately do train MMA.

Perhaps you don't, but still, an ignorant generalization was made about MMA fighters based on a reality show (see your own words below). Respect is obtained by respecting others. Spirituality means nothing without that. Spirituality without that is just self-contemplation.

It is not an ignorant generalization at all. I never said my observation was that all MMAists act like this, or that my personal belief was that even half of them do. I said that I think the reason some of the public looks down on it was because of fighters who act like they're tough shit and thug like. Hence, the TUF series reference, and the multiple fighters that I listed. Just when you compare the attitude of guys in MMA vs. guys who train in traditional Karate, Judo, Jiu Jutsu, etc. they are much less confrontational. At least all the people I know are.

Which then again, leads me to the spirituality, philosophical aspect of martial arts. Self-contemplation is spirituality. That is what Zen and Buddhism is. Reflection, contemplation, absence of attachments, absence of contemplation, enlightenment. The most important thing in your life is to find out who you are. You can't help others, if you don't know who you are. And you can't find that kind of information anywhere, or by doing charity work. Charity work by the way, is an incredible way to help the world, and I'm not saying it's useless. But it has nothing to do with spirituality, it's a physical thing. You give money, blood, clothes, tv's. etc. You don't give spirituality to somebody.

In any event, this should be the last post in this topic. Sorry for hijacking the thread., and I hope you've gotten some useful information out of it.

If you'd like to continue this debate then by all means, make another topic.

Cheers.