Messed up disc

[pkpk]

Years and Years ago I messed up my back in a pretty bad water skiing accident.

Doctors always called my situation the typical undiagnosed pain most people have. Well that was 20 years ago. Move ahead 15 years and the advent of the MRI. Now they have officially found that I damaged 3 discs. Multiple small rips and one bulging disc. However, the orthopedists never wanted to do anything but give me epidurals and medication. They said that since I was functional the risk of surgery was not worth it.

Move ahead a few years and now it has gotten to the point I can't tolerate the pain anymore. So I saw a different pain specialist that also performs several minimally evasive procedures. He said I am a good candidate for disc neucleoplasty.

From what I have read it is a great procedure that has been around for years in various forms. For disc problems it is only a few years old. The procedure is FDA approved - so it is not experimental. The literature claims that they are able to remove a portion of the disc from the inside of the disc using a very small device. They also can repairs the small rips. It is done under mild sedation and local anesthetic. No cutting. You leave the hospital a couple hours after the procedure and are mobile pretty fast. This seems like a miracle.

Has anyone heard of this or know anyone that had it? How was the success? How long before you were back to normal?


Thanks

[Vizigoth]

Surgery is the last course of action to take for a back problem. I know dozens of people who have had back surgery, and some who have had procedures that were supposedly "minimally invasive." Not one was 100% successful. Of course many have been helped by the surgery, but not one was returned to the condition that their back was in prior to the injury. Naturally, there are times when surgery is the ONLY course of action, but are you sure you have tried EVERY alternative? Surgery leaves scar tissue that will impact the action and sensation of the nerves in all the areas that are cut. I have been forced to have nerves severed in my foot and leg in order to repair damaged areas that could not otherwise have been repaired. It has taken years for the affected area to recover.

As you age, your discs degenerate; a process known as Degenerative Disc Disease. Every adult has it in varying degrees, though most are asymptomatic. As the disease advances, the disc loses its fluid; a process known as dessication. The reason your bulging disc causes so much pain, is that it still has fluid in it so that it can bulge enough to put pressure on nerves in the nerve channels of your vertabrae. If your disc was actually torn OPEN, the fluid would escape and start pressing on a nerve with such an agonizing sensation, that you would pass out and be taken in for emergency surgery and a likely spinal fusion. The tears that you have are likely ruptures in the surface of the disc, providing a root for the bulging disc to begin failing. Eventually, the disc will lose sufficient fluid, that it no longer bulges and impinges the nerve process.

My history includes a life time of contact sports, three major auto accidents, and a sprinkling of other unfortunate mishaps. I have two crushed discs that are totally dessicated (both C6). As long as I am careful, I have minimal problems from them. The bone spurs that are growing in the nerve channels of that vertabra create many more problems than the discs themselves. If your injury is old, is the pain exclusively from the bulging disc pressing on the nerve or is it compounded by bone spurring in the nerve canals of the vertebrae? That spurring process is the body's natural long term reaction to major back trauma. Additionally, I have six herniated discs that make life miserable sometimes. Other than that, ALL of my discs bulge in one or more places. I am a certain candidate for back surgery, it is simply a matter of when.

Fortunately, I have some wise physicians that are not prone to suggesting surgery as the first alternative. The chances of success are not good, and even then, they say it is critical to use a Neurosurgeon rather than having an orthopedic physician do the cutting. Get someone that specializes in surgical operations of the back if possible. Bear in mind that Back Surgery Technology is improving all the time. Each day you wait offers the possibility that the repair process you submit to may result in a greater result.

You do not mention the various treatments that you have attempted. I would presume that you have been seeing conventional medical personnel, doing physical therapy, and going through courses of various pharmaceuticals that reduce your personal effectiveness at everything you do with your life. Have you tried a chiropractor to see if they can help? At the very least, they can alleviate symptoms dramatically. Massage Therapy can also help a lot. Acupuncture is a relatively recent discovery (two years) for me that has made a huge difference. For me, I have also found that the ideal combination has evolved. I now see my chiropractor monthly, followed by a massage on the following Saturday. At one time or another, I have sought treatments from those specialties on a much more frequent basis. I have recently been able to reduce my Acupuncture from weekly to bi-weekly sessions. I hope to reduce all of them further as I continue to improve.

Improvement does occur if you do not give up on the tiny improvements that come with treatment and a continuous course of stretching and working out. My last accident was five years ago, and my last major injury was three years ago. This week for the first time in nineteen years, I was able to go camping and sleep in a tent, something that I used to do whenever I could. I returned with my back in good shape and none of my appendages were numb or experiencing pain. I look forward to doing it again soon.

Consider trying Acupuncture. It has proven to be a critical step in providing me with the means to approach physical effectiveness again. Two years ago, on a weekly basis I was taking: 11,000 mg of Naproxen Sodium, 4,000-6,000 mg of muscle relaxers, and 100-500 mg of morphine or codeine-based pain relievers. Trying to be effective professionally in the face of such pharmaceuticals is nearly impossible, and I left a high paying job to take a simpler form of employment. As I learn more about it, I am amazed at the variety of problems and conditions that it can aid, relieve, or cure, including arthritis, fibromyalgia, edema, headaches including migraine, carpal tunnel syndrome, bloating, appetite, sinuses, and acute chronic specific joint pain. I say this with proof provided by my own experience and friends that have been inspired by my improvements from a series of severe physical traumas.

My Acupuncurist works with birthing clinics in my area and routinely uses it to trigger, delay, and control the labor rate of mothers to be. Just last week, she treated a very pregnant lady's Small Toe to stimulate a baby to change its position in womb, thereby preventing a breach birth. She has appeared in a documentary on alternate birthing techniques on the Discovery Health Channel. It is a technology that conventional medicine is just waking up to. The fellow that referred me to her is an orthopedic surgeon that has been practicing for more than twenty years. His philosophy is that you cannot argue with results that work.

A note of caution. Acupuncture does not work for everyone. For my friends that did not get satisfactory results, they tried a different acupuncturist and found better results. In one case, a friend had to change acupuncturists twice. Also, it is common to feel lousy the day after your first few treatments. Acupuncture stimulates the body to discharge accumulated toxins, so the more you have the worse you feel. Toxemia, at any level, is not a happy experience. To alleviate those symptoms, take lots of water to aid in that discharge.

[pkpk]

I appreciate your comments and advice.

I did not mention everything alternative I have tried. (including acupuncture) If I did – my post would have been longer than yours. The fact is that I cannot live my life like this any more. I cannot walk a block. The amount of medication is beginning to make it impossible to work. The volume of medications put me at risk for liver problems in the future.

The question remains – has anyone had Nucleoplasty? What were your results?

Thanks

[Vizigoth]

www.nucleoplasty.com ?

Note the study that they are discussing involves leg pain only. Which of your discs is the problem?

[pkpk]

L3-L4 L4-L5 L5-S1 and maybe S1-S2 (that one was inconclusive on the MRI but I have some symptoms that might be related to it, I will know after the discogram)

Yes I have checked out the website and done tons of research. I just have not spoke to anyone directly that has had it done. That is what I am looking for.

[bouncer]

I'm dealing with a bulging disc as well. Wrecked havoc on me for 26 months or better. Since I started back to the gym, I've had an 80% improvement.

If you have tried other options the new procedures sound pretty good.

All the best and I hope you find the relief you are seeking.

[liza larence]

My group does nucleoplasties, I am in pain management...a PA. I could explain the procedure a little better in layman's terms if you like...We have alot of success with it, I'd say about 70-80% are dramatically improved, and their narcotic consumption goes way down.
Gotta figure out the pain generator, though... You have a discogram yet?

[pkpk]

Thanks Liz I will shoot you a PM.

[pkpk]

I had the caudal epidural this week. Not too bad except they found a lot of scar tissue. They were able to blow it away. Unfortunatly the epidural did not help very much. They also did a nerve test. Very poor results on when they tested my muscles from L3-4 and L4-5. So a discogram is next. My non surgical options are almost done.

[pkpk]

10% Benefit from the epidural. Just had Facet Injections 5 days ago - maybe another 10-15% - that is unless I am walking for 30 minutes. They are deciding on the Discogram next. This just sucks.

[liza larence]

Check under the nucleoplasty thread I started, pkpk...has a description of discogram (does suck) and I am going to write a layman's description of the nucleoplasty too

[boreal]

pkpk,

I feel your pain man, that pain sucks your whole life into it. And yours sounds worse than mine.
I had L4L5 herniation, got really bad over about 3 year period. Finally went under the knife to remove the bulge.
Well, 6 years later it's definitely better than it was BUT be prepared for it never to be 100% or that you'll never be without some kind of pain. When under the knife it's always a crap shoot.

My advice would be to continue to educate yourself (like you are) and don't give up! It WILL get better!

Good luck

[archimedes]

Guys some very good info you posted here. I have had low back trouble myself, fortunately not as severe.

These books helped me a lot :

-Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance (by Stuart McGill)
-Low Back Disorders (by Stuart McGill)

They have an array of test and exercises to help relieve and strengthen bad backs. However I feel they apply better to less severe cases than yours.

Thanks for posting, and good luck!

[Vizigoth]

This book is not available from Amazon or B&N. Any idea as to where it might be found?

[archimedes]

www.backfitpro.com is the site of the writer Dr. Stuart M. McGill. I got it from there.

He is an expert in his field, this book opened my eyes in many ways and I am not a newbie in this. The book is not an easy read but you will learn a lot. Many of the exercises perscribed by doctors & physical therapists for treatment are actually harmfull.

Both books deal with the same subjects (you can get either one without loosing much). Ultimate Back Fitness (2006) and Performance is geared more towards athletic performance and injured backs. It is softcover with lower quality photos. Low Back Disorders (2002) has a couple more tests to evaluate your back, it is hardcover with better photos.

You can also get them from www.elitefts.com (Dave Tate's site)

[archimedes]

I thought I should give you a couple of gems from the books above. The reasons for the following advice are fully explained and proven inside the books by the author.

1. Do not bend/stretch (and off course do not train) your back for 1 hour upon rising from bed.
2. If you have trouble sitting or bending do not perform stretching exercises of the lower back, ever.
3. Unless you back is never injured and in tip top shape avoid the reverse-hyper machine like the Devil.
4. Training seated always results in higher forces to the back.
5. Fast walking with hand swing is better than slow walking and even better than sitting.
6. Never lie down for more than 8 hours straight.
6. If you have trouble sitting (pain or stiffness) try this: Put on a backpack with a 7-10kg weight sitting just above the lower back and go for a fast walk on uneven ground. (This worked as a miracle for my back, instant relief)

[liza larence]

Good stuff, Archimedes!

[pkpk]

Cool thanks.