Baseball

**Gman1524** · May 29th, 2005, 10:32 PM

Does anyone follow baseball any more?

As much as the sport has changed since I fell in love with it as a kid, as much as I detest the self-centeredness and selfish play of today's anabolic steroid cheating athletes of today, a part of me still loves the game.

What was your first memory of the game?

Are today's MTV generation even able to follow the leisurely paced game today?

I love baseball. I just wish my team, the Phillies, would win. As much as everyone loves the Cubs and their fans, it is the Phillies that are the losingest team in any organized sport. Ever. One World Series title in over 100 years of existence.

Who is your team, and why?

Who was your favorite player? Today's favorite player?

Does anyone care?

LiLitaly28 · May 30th, 2005, 02:21 AM

I guess ill have to start this one off here. I def follow baseball. In fact i still play!!! I have to disagree with the self-centeredness and selfish comment you make towards baseball players. Just cause they look to make moeny in a sport where they can just like all other athletics do why single them out? Also, i find no reason they shouldnt be allowed to do AS and there was no rule in MLB saying they couldnt do it. Also, if everyone is doing it how are you cheating? Maybe you are just trying to keep up.

Moving on from that topic, I love the Mets, eve since I was a kid. Because they weren't the best and everyone else liked the Yankees (im from NY).

My first memory was actually before baseball, it was playing stickball with my dad when i was very very young.

So i dont like the Phillies as you can tell, and i agree they are miserable.

My favorite play was Todd Hundley, catcher for the Mets who set the record for most homeruns by a catcher in the NL. which i think has been broken by Piazza since then.

Now day my favorite player is Pudge or Andy Petetite. But of all time I love Ty Cobb. He was an asshole and played hard. SOB who everyone hated,, even sharpened his spikes before his games.

Lastly i care about baseball. I love watch college ball to. I get it on at least three channels and love watching it whenever i can. Baseball is not a slow paced sport if you appreciate it and know what you are watching. But i understand when people think it, i just dont see it as the same way.

Great post though. ill talk baseball anytime

**Gman1524** · May 30th, 2005, 06:26 PM

Thanks for playing along.

Now to clarify on my points a little. Just because EVERYONE is doing it (taking steroids or HGH) does not make it right. It is still cheating no matter how much you want to justify it. "Just keeping up" is still cheating. If the majority is doing something it still does not make it right. Truth is truth.

As a Mets fan, I'm sure you remember Rusty Staub. I loved him. There was no way he'd take steroids if he played today. I think he had too much integrity for the game. That is why I think the game suffers today. The money is so great that an athlete will sell away his integrity for the pursuit of the dollar.

I disagree with you, or perhaps you misunderstood my position on the selfishness of today's players. They ARE selfish. They do not play the game correctly any more. I remember the older players hitting BEHIND the runner to advance him, or bunting the runner into scoring position, or hitting the ball to the opposite field, or even sacrificing the runner into scoring position. That is fundemental baseball, and today's players do not do that. There is no money in the sacrifice bunt. It's not glamorous. All the money is with the one that hits the big home run. I have never seen so many boneheaded players hit into double plays, or kill a rally by trying to hit a home run when they should be trying to advance the runner. That is bad baseball.

Name one player today that you consider to be a good bunter. Ever watch batting practice? They practice one or two bunts, and make the switch to swing for the fences. Brett Butler was the last of a dying breed. He was a terrific bunter, and he understood how to play the game. His type is gone forever. Today's player, for the most part, will not sacrifice their own stats for the betterment of the team.

Did you know that Ty Cobb used to place pieces of paper in the outfield, and then practice hitting the pieces of paper? He tried to hit the ball exactly where HE wanted to hit it. That is why he has the highest batting average of anyone who ever played the game.

I think my favorite player is Curt Schilling. I love the guy - total head case - but he has the heart of a lion. His performance in last year's playoffs and World Series will go down in history as one of the greatest performances ever. Your grandchildren will talk of the "bloody sock". But as a New Yorker I'm sure you'll disagree.

Mike Schmidt was my all time favorite player. Nobody wanted to win more than he did.

7741 · May 31st, 2005, 07:56 AM

Who is your team, and why?

Who was your favorite player? Today's favorite player?

Does anyone care? [/size]

[/quote]

Love the Indians! I grew up and still live in Cleveland, OH. They where dominent 1995-2000 (even know they didn't win anything! and lost to the f@$^ing Marlins and Braves in the world series!) Now they are a fun team to watch, young players adjusting to the majors, they have the potential to be a very good team this year and for years to come!

favorite player all time would be Bob Feller, favorite player today would have to be Manny Ramirez.

LOVE BASEBALL!

**Gman1524** · May 31st, 2005, 02:24 PM

The greatest Indian of them all.

Warren Spahn

LiLitaly28 · June 2nd, 2005, 10:28 AM

Cheating by taking AS? Explain to me how? It was never against any MLB rules. Nowhere was there a rule about it, so MLB players could take them. Thats why I dont think it was cheating. Also, it is a major result of the public that these players are doing this. A majority of fans do not want to see a close game or a pitchers duel. Yes, there are those that do, but majority want to see a ton of homeruns.

I will agree with you that players do not hit behind the runner anymore or sacrifice themself for the team. It is all about the stats because when it comes down to it thats what managers and teams are looking for. How many managers chew out players for this type of mentality. Also, youll even see guys give up on balls they have hit, not running them out. Watch some major leaguers hit a sky high pop up and just jog to first. Some times itll drop in and they could be standing on second, but no. And even Pudge, who i love is very selfish. When he played for Texas he would only call outside fastballs if a guy got on first that he thought was going to steal. This was to make sure he was abe to throw the guy out. And if he didnt have the guy he wouldnt even pop up. So it wouldnt go against his stats. Thats why the pitching staff hated his guts down there. So i guess that is a big problem i have with MLB baseball. So, yes i misunderstoo your point but i dont think all the fault goes on the players. The managers facilitate this type of behavior by letting it go on when they should be chewed out. This is why i really watch college baseball. It is amazing. I love watching it, i iwhs it wasnt metal bats but they play their hearts out and leave nothing on the field.

Yes, i did know that about Ty Cobb. That SOB was crazy but amazing.

Any thoughts on a World Series this year? Who's making the playoffs for which conference and then going all the way?

Who do you think the best owner in baseball is?

By the way i could talk baseball all day. haha

**Gman1524** · June 2nd, 2005, 05:59 PM

Just because the substance is not banned by baseball does not make it right. In essence, the players are taking performance enhancing substances to give them an edge over the players that do not. It's cheating no matter how you want to slice it. Hank Aaaron. Willie Mays. Babe Ruth. Joe Dimagio. Frank Robinson. Stan Musial. Ted Williams. They did it without cheating. The game will survive without the steroids because it is a great game. Why cheapen it?

The reason that the managers are the way they are is BECAUSE of the players. The players make so much money that it is easier to get rid of the manager than it is the players. Case in point, look at the Phillies. Larry Bowa was mean, and he had no problem ripping the players. The players bitched. Exit Bowa. The Phillies go hire Mr. Warm and Fuzzy himself - Charlie Manuel. Players happy. Phillies - last place.

I agree with you on college ball. I hate those alluminum bats. Ping! That just rubs me the wrong way.

It's way too early to talk playoffs yet, but the clubs with the young arms may do well. Look for Florida again to make some noise in the playoffs.

By the way, have you seen the ChiSox? I haven't. How are they winning so much? What turned them around? Clue me in if you can.

Best owner? George Steinbrenner. He will do anything to win. No matter what. I don't care if he outspends the entire league. He wants to win more than any owner I can think of.

Worst owner? I'll take this one - The Phillies. They suck.

**vorader** · June 3rd, 2005, 04:15 PM

I love baseball. I watch every dodger game. My favorite dodger moment is the kirk gibson homer off eckersley. I sill watch that game when espn classic plays it and it still gives me goosebumps. My favorite dodger is fernando valenzuela. Everytime he pitched, chavez ravine was filled with noise. That guy brought new life to dodger stadium and it was exciting watching him pitch. I used to close my eyes sometimes when Orel Hershiser pitched through that incredible streak of scoreless innings hoping no one would score. I love watching cesar izturis play. Most of the baseball games I watch now are the little league games my nephew plays. Still, every year I have high expectations for the dodgers to make the world series except for this year. I felt Paul Depodesta dismantled the whole roster and now they are starting to play the ball I expected them to play. And it's not pretty.

**Gman1524** · June 4th, 2005, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vorader

I love baseball. I watch every dodger game. My favorite dodger moment is the kirk gibson homer off eckersley. I sill watch that game when espn classic plays it and it still gives me goosebumps. My favorite dodger is fernando valenzuela. Everytime he pitched, chavez ravine was filled with noise. That guy brought new life to dodger stadium and it was exciting watching him pitch. I used to close my eyes sometimes when Orel Hershiser pitched through that incredible streak of scoreless innings hoping no one would score. I love watching cesar izturis play. Most of the baseball games I watch now are the little league games my nephew plays. Still, every year I have high expectations for the dodgers to make the world series except for this year. I felt Paul Depodesta dismantled the whole roster and now they are starting to play the ball I expected them to play. And it's not pretty.

Love Dem Bums

Cool of you to stray over here, Vorader.

**vorader** · June 4th, 2005, 09:05 PM

And I hate the Giants.

**l00k** · June 5th, 2005, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gman1524

[size=2]Does anyone follow baseball any more?

...

I love baseball. I just wish my team, the Phillies, would win. As much as everyone

The Phillies seem to be a lot better since they got that rat bastard, Larry Bowa, out of town. They're playing well of late and it helps to have a healthy Jim Thome in the lineup. I still think they have some holes but Thome, Burrell, and Abreu are good hitters.

Pitching wise they're decent. Brett Myers is great. Jon Lieber seems to be healthy again, although he has been roughed up lately. Padilla has been awful, and Randy Wolf hasn't been much better. I don't think they expect much out of Cory Lidle, but he's probably been their second best starting pitcher this year. That's saying something about how thin they are.

I think they should trade Ryan Howard for some pitching. With Thome on the team he's never going to have a chance to play. He could bring in a quality #2 or 3 starter, something the team is lacking.

**l00k** · June 5th, 2005, 02:50 AM

Oh and are any of you interested in joining a rotissery league?

It's a yahoo league. Free. No $$$ involved.

http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/b1/
League: 352550
Password: 69times

The more teams the better.

LiLitaly28 · June 6th, 2005, 10:41 AM

bump l00k on the Phillies. Has any one seen some of the ball that the Mets are playing. That whole conference, the NL East, is so tight.

1. Washington
2. Atlanta .5 GB
3. Mets 1 GB
4. Phillies 1 GB
5. Florida 1.5 GB

If this conference stays this way its gonna be one exciting playoff race to watch.

Gotta give love to the Dodgers as well. Paul Lo Duca was one of my favorite players. To bad they traded him. Still gotta love Gange. I say the Dodgers play the BoSox in Fl for spring training. Gange was still hurt so that was a bummer but they bet the Sox so i was real happy.

I have to agree with you there Gmann,George Steinbrenner is hands down the best owner. He is the Trump of MLB. Buys what he wants at any cost. No questions asked. What a genious.

Oh and this weekend was NCAA Regional play for DI baseball. I dont know if any of you guys watched it but it was awesome. I love watching college ball, even though they use metal bats. There were a ton of nasty plays, pitching and even hitting. It was nuts. Coming up is the Super Regionals and then the College World series. Check it out if you havent. Youll get a look at the up and coming meat for the Majors.

Also, Gman. I totally understand what you're saying about just cause everyone does it doesnt make it right. But, why is it wrong if its not banned. Also, AS does not make you hit the ball or catch the ball or all the fundemental things in baseball. Bonds hits a ton of homeruns. It mght help him hit the ball farther but it didnt help him make contact and making contact with a 90+ mph pitch with a bat 60ft6in away is tough enough. Especially when he wasnt really getting pitched to.

**Old_Fart2** · June 6th, 2005, 10:55 AM

I wasn't aware that MLB had no policy against using illegal drugs (steroid are illegal unless prescribed by an MD for a medical condition). I though all the major leagues had such policies in place.

As far as baseball, sorry, GMan, I'm just not a fan. It moves a bit too slow for me. In fact, most sports really don't interest me that much, except my son's soccer games. I just hate to plop myself down for 2-3 hours in front of the TV. I'd usually rather be doing something else.

I do watch basketball occasionally, mainly because my son is such a fanatic. 10 years old and he can already recite all the players stats.

**vorader** · June 6th, 2005, 11:13 AM

The dodgers haven't had a good GM in years, decades maybe. They've done some of the worst trades in recent baseball history starting with pedro martinez for delino deshields. That one still gets me upset. I didn't like to see loduca go either but brad penny is a pretty good pitcher as long as that nerve doesn't act up. It's great to see Gagne pitch. If you think he makes hitters look like little leaguers on TV you should see it live. He makes some pro players look like teeball swingers.

I love to hate the Yankees. I always want them to lose everytime I catch a yankee game. I've been that way ever since Mr. October hit the crap out of dodger pitching way back in the world series. But Steinbrenner is the best owner in baseball. No doubt about that one.

If it's not banned, then it's fair play. Bud Selig needs to get off his ass and try to fix some of the bad stuff in baseball, though. But I agree with LiLitaly, it takes much more than performance enhancement to hit a homerun.

**Old_Fart2** · June 6th, 2005, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vorader

But I agree with LiLitaly, it takes much more than performance enhancement to hit a homerun.

I also agree with this. Not every body builder who uses steroids is going to end up looking like Arnold or Dorian Yates or Nassar. You gotta have some genetic potential in the first place.

And steroids aren't going to give you any athletic ability when you have none. But they do provide an edge. I believe that using steroids cheapens the acheivements; as I suggested in another thread, if it's just about getting a trophy to put on your mantle, than go to a trophy store and buy one. But if it's about making yourself the best athlete you can become and winning through your efforts and feeling good about yourself, than throw away the drugs, study nutrition, get in the gym, and practice, practice, practice.

If it takes using steroids to compete, then, for me, I would chose not to compete. And I look at this from the persepective of one who was faced with that choice about 25 years ago and decided against the steroids. Not that I ever would have become a world-class bodybuilder or powerlifter but I could have gone to the next level if I had chosen that route. But I chose the route towards overall health and fitness and from this vantage point, I'm glad I did.

Is it worth being the strongest man in the world and dying at age 38 (Anthony Clark)? I'm 15 years older than that and still going strong.

LiLitaly28 · June 6th, 2005, 12:29 PM

i understand you side of this debate Old Fart but why is using AS any different then using a ph or creatine? Yes, i understand AS is much greater but isnt creatine giving you an edge? So, you are against anything like that then?

On another note, if someone came to me right now and said you can play pro ball if you do this but youll die by late 40's early 50s, id have to say yes. I know im gonna catch a lot of flak on this one but id say i would do it.

**Old_Fart2** · June 6th, 2005, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiLitaly28

On another note, if someone came to me right now and said you can play pro ball if you do this but youll die by late 40's early 50s, id have to say yes. I know im gonna catch a lot of flak on this one but id say i would do it.

I think at age 50 you would have a different answer.

I'll tell you, it doesn't seem that long ago that I was in my 20's or 30' or 40's. And am I ready to die now? Hell, no. I still feel great and can out-perform most people half my age. Your priorities will change as you age; keep an open mind about that. Try to imagine yourself 30 years from now, still in great physical condition from years of taking care of yourself, eating right, with the extra knowledge and, if you're lucky, wisdom that comes with age.

I made that choice years ago, that I was in it for the long run; that I wanted to push that envelope as far as I could!

And, was that a rhetorical question or do you really not understand the difference between taking creatine and taking AS or GH? I think you probably do but are simply using self-rationalization to justify AS.

If people chose to take AS, knowing full well the health risks involved, then that is their choice. To me, however, it still lessens their acheivements knowing that they have done so.

**Manfred_Man** · June 6th, 2005, 03:28 PM

i'd have to say that i don't really follow baseball... i loved playing when i was younger and when i played minor ball, but i can't watch it! i miss playing though!

as far as AS is concerned, i saw quite a few guys taking them, but they weren't as rampant as people say they are today... i figure if people are willing to take them knowing the full implications & consequences, it's their choice... just as long as they're made fully aware of the potential outcomes. we used to say that everyone has their price, and most don't know the full costs until later. again, a guy's gotta do what a guy's gotta do... but i'm with old_fart: "it still lessens their achievements knowing that they have done so"

**Manfred_Man** · June 6th, 2005, 03:32 PM

btw, love the expos of the late 70's, the reds & cards of the 80's, the jays in the late 80's & early 90's... will always hate the yanks (just because)
- as a former pitcher, my faves have always been the men behind me... shortshop & second basemen... bailing me out with great plays! the wizard of oz, robbie alomar, omar visquel just to name a few...