creatine and whey protien

bigdog66 · October 13th, 2005, 07:43 AM

Hey can anyone tell me if its ok if i mix my creatine with my whey protien and milk am i still going to get the same benafits from it this way?

**acutekitten** · October 13th, 2005, 10:13 AM

I would think so. I mix a little creatine in with my morning shake when i first wake up.

**exnatural123** · October 13th, 2005, 10:13 AM

This depends largly on what kind or brand of protien, creatine..No it will not be as efficientalway some wasted in the bottom of shaker bottle, but will work... I suggest you use creatine in small glass of grape juice... Just dump it in mix and drink from the bottom with a straw... This willl ensure you injest all your creatine

**PythonPower** · October 19th, 2005, 01:56 AM

a trick i saw one of my friends do a few days ago...lol take a spoonful, dump it in his mouth and chug down a bottle of water...funny yet...effective i guess...but yea grape juice is always better

**Italianangel** · October 24th, 2005, 06:45 PM

depends on your total protein with both, 5 grams of creatine is fine but if your shake has 50 grams then you could be pissing out the creatine if your protein threshold is 45-50.......

**PythonPower** · October 24th, 2005, 08:42 PM

i have to disagree with that

**Italianangel** · October 24th, 2005, 10:11 PM

You can only assimulate so much protein at a time, so if you are taking in more than your body can process, the rest is not utilized for the muscle.........creatine and glutamine are all protein so the total grams of the proteins in your shake is what you look at.......

**Italianangel** · October 24th, 2005, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PythonPower

i have to disagree with that

How much protein do you believe a person can handle per shot???
40-60 is the avg grams per shot - you figure if you get protein and creatine in a shake and the grams go over this, what do you thing happens to the grams taken in above and beyond what the body will process??

**acutekitten** · October 24th, 2005, 10:35 PM

There have been no scientific studies to prove this. Sorry italianangel.

**PythonPower** · October 25th, 2005, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Italianangel

You can only assimulate so much protein at a time, so if you are taking in more than your body can process, the rest is not utilized for the muscle.........creatine and glutamine are all protein so the total grams of the proteins in your shake is what you look at.......

Correction. creatine is not protein. creatine is a completely different component. Glutamine is an amino acid that is one of the amino acids of protein. when you overdose on protein, you do not urinate it out, instead you crap it out in the form of a massive diarrhea

**PythonPower** · October 25th, 2005, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Italianangel

How much protein do you believe a person can handle per shot???
40-60 is the avg grams per shot - you figure if you get protein and creatine in a shake and the grams go over this, what do you thing happens to the grams taken in above and beyond what the body will process??

it depends on the person...40 to 60 is the average, however, once again, creatine is not protein.

**Italianangel** · October 25th, 2005, 11:50 AM

Creatine and glutamine are considered parts of the amino chain, toward total protein and according to Harvard School of public health, too much can cause problems, it not fully assimulated
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritio...e/protein.html quoted below:
Can you get too much protein? Digesting it releases acids that the body usually neutralizes with calcium and other buffering agents in the blood. Eating lots of protein, such as the amounts recommended in the so-called low-carb or no-carb diets, takes lots of calcium. Some of this may be pulled from bone. Following a high-protein diet for a few weeks probably won't have much effect on bone strength. Doing it for a long time, though, could weaken bone. In the Nurses' Health Study, for example, women who ate more than 95 grams of protein a day were 20 percent more likely to have broken a wrist over a 12-year period when compared to those who ate an average amount of protein (less than 68 grams a day).(1) Although more research is clearly needed to define the optimal amount of daily protein, these results suggest that long-term high-protein diets should be used with caution, if at all.

another quote from WHO from this article http://www.notmilk.com/protein.html :

Experts are still not entirely sure how much protein we need, and estimates have often been revised in recent years. The national and international organizations which advise on nutrient requirements suggest standards which are calculated to meet or exceed the requirements of practically everyone, explicitly taking into account individual variation, and so these levels have a wide in-built safety margin. In 1985 the World Health Organization (WHO) published revised figures as follows -(1)
The WHO protein figures translate into 56g of protein a day for a (75kg) man, and 48g for a (64kg) woman. The recommendations of the UK Department of Health and Social Security (DHSS) are slightly higher, at about 68g a day for sedentary or moderately active men, and 54g a day for women (2). Both these official recommendations suggest that eating 10% of our daily energy as protein will provide an adequate amount. The NACNE report (3) proposes a protein intake of 11%. National and international recommendations for protein intake are based on animal sources of protein such as meat, cow's milk and eggs. Plant proteins may be less digestible because of intrinsic differences in the nature of the protein and the presence of other factors such as fibre, which may reduce protein digestibility by as much as 10%.
Here is another:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/414351

This was basically what I was trying to say without being to technical -
Can one take in too much protein?

CCS
The typical American diet, as we said earlier, is already providing plenty of protein. There is no value in adding even more protein to that amount, since protein cannot be stored in the body and the excess is eliminated in urine and feces.

When people start consuming too much protein (over 2.0 g/kg/d), the extra protein can become a stressful stimulus for the kidney. This is even more of a concern as we get older and our organs are less efficient and effective.

Very high levels of dietary protein have also been correlated with increased urinary calcium excretion. The loss of calcium through urine could potentially be harmful for bone turnover, with the added risk of osteoporosis. Finally, protein requires vitamin B6 in order to be metabolized and ultimately utilized in the body. Very high levels of dietary protein increase the requirement for this B vitamin.
quoted from - http://www.thedoctorwillseeyounow.co...ion/protein_2/

Can excess protein intake be harmful?
Protein metabolism releases nitrogen in amino acids as a by-product. This nitrogen must then be eliminated from the body through the kidneys. Water is needed to help excrete nitrogen. Therefore, an excess of protein can result in water loss, frequent urination, and dehydration, all of which can lead to a decrease in performance. This process also places excess stress on the liver and kidneys.
and this quoted from:
http://www.healthgoods.com/Education...es/protein.htm

what is creatine? see here
Definitions of Creatine on the Web:

The fuel source for ATP, an energy system used for short bursts of power. Dehydration - The abnormal depletion of body fluids. Results in a severe decline in athletic performance and can lead to life-threatening circumstances.
www.cytosport.com/science/glossary.html

an amino acid; found in muscle. Phosphorylated creatine is an important storage form of high-energy phosphate = creatine phosphate or phosphocreatine. Energy source for muscle contraction.
www.uwo.ca/pathol/glossary.html

A protein derivative in muscle tissue. Sometimes found in body-building supplements.
allindiansite.com/home/beauty/beauty_glossary.html
quoted from: http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&lr...efine:Creatine

Hope that helps with what I was trying to say.

Linda

**PythonPower** · October 26th, 2005, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Italianangel

Creatine and glutamine are considered parts of the amino chain, toward total protein and according to Harvard School of public health, too much can cause problems, it not fully assimulated
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritio...e/protein.html quoted below:
Can you get too much protein? Digesting it releases acids that the body usually neutralizes with calcium and other buffering agents in the blood. Eating lots of protein, such as the amounts recommended in the so-called low-carb or no-carb diets, takes lots of calcium. Some of this may be pulled from bone. Following a high-protein diet for a few weeks probably won't have much effect on bone strength. Doing it for a long time, though, could weaken bone. In the Nurses' Health Study, for example, women who ate more than 95 grams of protein a day were 20 percent more likely to have broken a wrist over a 12-year period when compared to those who ate an average amount of protein (less than 68 grams a day).(1) Although more research is clearly needed to define the optimal amount of daily protein, these results suggest that long-term high-protein diets should be used with caution, if at all.

another quote from WHO from this article http://www.notmilk.com/protein.html :

Experts are still not entirely sure how much protein we need, and estimates have often been revised in recent years. The national and international organizations which advise on nutrient requirements suggest standards which are calculated to meet or exceed the requirements of practically everyone, explicitly taking into account individual variation, and so these levels have a wide in-built safety margin. In 1985 the World Health Organization (WHO) published revised figures as follows -(1)
The WHO protein figures translate into 56g of protein a day for a (75kg) man, and 48g for a (64kg) woman. The recommendations of the UK Department of Health and Social Security (DHSS) are slightly higher, at about 68g a day for sedentary or moderately active men, and 54g a day for women (2). Both these official recommendations suggest that eating 10% of our daily energy as protein will provide an adequate amount. The NACNE report (3) proposes a protein intake of 11%. National and international recommendations for protein intake are based on animal sources of protein such as meat, cow's milk and eggs. Plant proteins may be less digestible because of intrinsic differences in the nature of the protein and the presence of other factors such as fibre, which may reduce protein digestibility by as much as 10%.
Here is another:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/414351

This was basically what I was trying to say without being to technical -
Can one take in too much protein?

CCS
The typical American diet, as we said earlier, is already providing plenty of protein. There is no value in adding even more protein to that amount, since protein cannot be stored in the body and the excess is eliminated in urine and feces.

When people start consuming too much protein (over 2.0 g/kg/d), the extra protein can become a stressful stimulus for the kidney. This is even more of a concern as we get older and our organs are less efficient and effective.

Very high levels of dietary protein have also been correlated with increased urinary calcium excretion. The loss of calcium through urine could potentially be harmful for bone turnover, with the added risk of osteoporosis. Finally, protein requires vitamin B6 in order to be metabolized and ultimately utilized in the body. Very high levels of dietary protein increase the requirement for this B vitamin.
quoted from - http://www.thedoctorwillseeyounow.co...ion/protein_2/

Can excess protein intake be harmful?
Protein metabolism releases nitrogen in amino acids as a by-product. This nitrogen must then be eliminated from the body through the kidneys. Water is needed to help excrete nitrogen. Therefore, an excess of protein can result in water loss, frequent urination, and dehydration, all of which can lead to a decrease in performance. This process also places excess stress on the liver and kidneys.
and this quoted from:
http://www.healthgoods.com/Education...es/protein.htm

what is creatine? see here
Definitions of Creatine on the Web:

The fuel source for ATP, an energy system used for short bursts of power. Dehydration - The abnormal depletion of body fluids. Results in a severe decline in athletic performance and can lead to life-threatening circumstances.
www.cytosport.com/science/glossary.html

an amino acid; found in muscle. Phosphorylated creatine is an important storage form of high-energy phosphate = creatine phosphate or phosphocreatine. Energy source for muscle contraction.
www.uwo.ca/pathol/glossary.html

A protein derivative in muscle tissue. Sometimes found in body-building supplements.
allindiansite.com/home/beauty/beauty_glossary.html
quoted from: http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&lr...efine:Creatine

Hope that helps with what I was trying to say.

Linda

Hate to break it to you, but i still disagree:

1. of course if you eat ANY of one thing too much, you will have problems specially when you are not getting the rest of the vitamins and minerals! this has nothing to do with high protein, but rather you depriving your body of calcium.

2. Notmilk.com is not really a reliable source who think milk is evil...

2.1 Goodluck building muscles and getting big with only 10% of your daily intake as protein.
2.2 Last time i checked WHO was on the cutting edge of nutrition and science. they made such a great contribution like...like..umm....WHOA! i cant think of single useful thing they have done.

3. Drink Water. You always drink water. Major part of your body is water based. You need water to keep everything running at optimal levels as well as "flush" your system regularly. Now if you are ingesting high protein or not, if you are not drinking decent amount of water....whose fault is that?

3.1 The kidney thing is the one of the oldest myths out there that has never ever been proven to be a valid one.

3.2 Once again, if you are not getting all the different vitamins and minerals your body needs, whose fault is that? Not the high protein diet, but the "dieter" for neglecting and depriving his body. And O, by the way, Meat, eggs, and fish, they all happen to have something in common...can you guess what? they all have B6 in them. (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...Food%20Sources)

3.3 The typical american diet is NOT providing enough protein. You gotta be blind to believe the statement that it is providing plenty of protein. The typical diet is providing is: grease, grease, grease, cholestrol, high refined sugars, high carbohydrates. Not enough protein.

4. Once again, keep yourself hydrated. Not keeping yourself hydrated....whose fault is that?

4.1. Once more, there never has been any proven evidence that it places your kidneys and liver under heavy stress. Oldest myths in the book.

5. Creatine is not an amino acid. That is incorrect

5.1 Creatine phosphate -- An energy-rich compound that supplies energy and a phosphate group for the formation of ATP. (http://nutrition.jbpub.com/discoveri...ne%20phosphate)

5.2 Creatine is something that can naturally be found skeletal muscles such as meat and fish. If your body lacks creatine, it synthesizes new creatine from the 3 amino acids: arginine, glycine and methionine

5.3 Creatine by default is not amino acid, but a by product of the above mentioned amino acids

**Italianangel** · October 26th, 2005, 11:00 AM

that is fine but back it up.........some reliable source, prove the info is incorrect, prove the info I posted is not reliable...........I can find more of this same info with medical studies from clinical journals............I am more than willing to learn from reliable info.......not hearsay.

**Italianangel** · October 26th, 2005, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PythonPower

Hate to break it to you, but i still disagree:

1. of course if you eat ANY of one thing too much, you will have problems specially when you are not getting the rest of the vitamins and minerals! this has nothing to do with high protein, but rather you depriving your body of calcium.

2. Notmilk.com is not really a reliable source who think milk is evil...

2.1 Goodluck building muscles and getting big with only 10% of your daily intake as protein.
2.2 Last time i checked WHO was on the cutting edge of nutrition and science. they made such a great contribution like...like..umm....WHOA! i cant think of single useful thing they have done.

3. Drink Water. You always drink water. Major part of your body is water based. You need water to keep everything running at optimal levels as well as "flush" your system regularly. Now if you are ingesting high protein or not, if you are not drinking decent amount of water....whose fault is that?

3.1 The kidney thing is the one of the oldest myths out there that has never ever been proven to be a valid one.

3.2 Once again, if you are not getting all the different vitamins and minerals your body needs, whose fault is that? Not the high protein diet, but the "dieter" for neglecting and depriving his body. And O, by the way, Meat, eggs, and fish, they all happen to have something in common...can you guess what? they all have B6 in them. (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...Food%20Sources)

3.3 The typical american diet is NOT providing enough protein. You gotta be blind to believe the statement that it is providing plenty of protein. The typical diet is providing is: grease, grease, grease, cholestrol, high refined sugars, high carbohydrates. Not enough protein.

4. Once again, keep yourself hydrated. Not keeping yourself hydrated....whose fault is that?

4.1. Once more, there never has been any proven evidence that it places your kidneys and liver under heavy stress. Oldest myths in the book.

5. Creatine is not an amino acid. That is incorrect

5.1 Creatine phosphate -- An energy-rich compound that supplies energy and a phosphate group for the formation of ATP. (http://nutrition.jbpub.com/discoveri...ne%20phosphate)

5.2 Creatine is something that can naturally be found skeletal muscles such as meat and fish. If your body lacks creatine, it synthesizes new creatine from the 3 amino acids: arginine, glycine and methionine

5.3 Creatine by default is not amino acid, but a by product of the above mentioned amino acids

notmilk is just one site I found but regardless of that, the info is correct, and in other medical studies.....prove it is incorrect.
I do not say I agree with only 10% but then not the whole globe is looking for muscle building and for a normal person that is fine.........
The kidney thing IS proven and has happened to a few bb I know personally!
how much B6 is in those foods...........now denatured are they?
I agree most do not get enough protein........but that was not the discussion......
there is proven evidence about liver and kidney damage due to imbalance in protein diet
As for creatine, I think the drs may be a bit more ahead on studies with that so you may want to look closer to back up your statement. Creatine uses the same transport system as protein and all if its substraits, it can only transport so much at a time.........which was the whole purpose of this thread.

**Italianangel** · October 26th, 2005, 11:10 AM

Thanks for the debate.........I am totally open to learning anything new.......but from reliable sources not hearsay.

**Italianangel** · October 26th, 2005, 11:17 AM

WHO is only once source, and have done more clinical studies than WE have............can you back up that their info is NOT correct? Can you find a better source disproving what they say - other than T-nation, maybe medical sources, University sources? Something concrete?

**PythonPower** · October 28th, 2005, 02:07 AM

WHO may have done studies and trials, but do they pertain to us, as in bodybuilders, fitness people? i dont think so. The problem lies here that not many people, unversities, etc., have done detailed studies on this subject i.e. bodybuilding at all.

**PythonPower** · October 28th, 2005, 02:09 AM

as for people you know who ran into kidney problems, i suspect other factors to be at play, but overall as a majority, i do not believe there is a clear true link established between the two

**Italianangel** · October 28th, 2005, 10:23 AM

good points all around..............the bottom line is I still say you need to watch the amount of protein taken in per meal because moderation is the key, even for bodybuilding there will be a threshold where your protein has a number for your particular body and won't assimulate more than that amount and regardless of what you and or I believe, the excess is not utilized and is wasted one way or another. I say to stay within 60 grams of protein including creatine and glutamine numbers.